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Thread ID: 114618	2010-12-10 08:00:00	Beer Tax	Cicero (40)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1160484	2010-12-11 22:57:00	Ah but wait then we have the employers who pay minimum wage but can not guarantee the amount of hours! Where is the incentive for people to work? According to WINZ if your a couple and working less than 30 hours per week even with children you are unemployed and must look for work! Yet you could be working 32 hours per week on a minimum wage and be worse off than someone on the benefit because of your get to work costs. Hows that fair? Exactly - it's not fair. We should be encouraging those people to keep working - one idea is to top up their remaining 8 hours with some form of "community work" paid by WINZ or similar. If the current system is making someone in the scenario you describe worse off than someone on the benefit, then it is clearly sending the wrong message. Yes people are milking it and they are just a small fraction you will get anywhere in the world but what fix is there that will not strongly affect those that are trying their level best to get ahead without the help which is hard to get anyways. Unfortunately a "small fraction" of $24.2 billion dollars is still a lot of money which could be spent on making doctors' visits free for those on low incomes, funding our schools properly so they don't have to rely on "donations" from parents, making improvements to our infrastructure and what-not.	somebody (208)
1160485	2010-12-11 23:36:00	Fifty years ago, New Zealands unemployed were leass than 4 figures, and a large number of them were unemployable - So what went wrong, we started importing people, hundreds of thousands of them, and through to the mid eighties, NZ still had full employment, and even better no grievance industry, and no full time victims. Then along came Roger Douglas, and Rogernomics, was imposed on NZ. Why should New Zealand make things, and give employment to their people, when Asian countries could use economy of scale and make everything we need so much cheaper- economically very sound thinking - tens of thousands of NZ jobs were exported - well the problem was that there were not sufficient replacement jobs for all the kiwis that were the victims of the new efficiency. The benefit, that we would get just about everything cheaper, was in part a myth, Brierley and co who put 10s of thousands of kiwis put of work, did hand some of the efficiency windfall to the consumer, but the real benefit was to their bottom line. This was followed 10 years later by that far sighted legislation the "Employment Contracts Act" that casualised thousands of NZ jobs and drove down living standards for the vast army of unskilled and semi skilled New Zealanders. Since Rogernomics hit New Zealand, 35 years have passed, and we are now into second generation of unemployed - sadly if there are no jobs to be had in a community, then the only solution is to move, the problem is that if all the unemployed moved to the main centres they would be faced with significantly higher living costs, and still there would not be enough jobs, after all there are a finite number of openings for Tour guides, Maori Concert Parties, basket weavers, et al. NZ no longer manufactiures outside the primary products support industries, so there is little chance of job growth to solve the problem, let alone to inspire the young of the lower sicio economic groups to learn a meaningful trade or occupation. To top this off the tax base has shrunk to the level of where the cost of supporting all the casualties, real and the excuse makers, for not trying to help themselves, is now wanting for taxpayers to share the burden, and NZ has got uinto a welfare loop of diminishing returns.	KenESmith (6287)
1160486	2010-12-12 00:00:00	The above assumes that there is nothing to do. I think of all public areas that could be improved, old people who could be helped etc. We should be prepared to labour , if we want to eat.	Cicero (40)
1160487	2010-12-12 00:27:00	Exactly - it's not fair. We should be encouraging those people to keep working - one idea is to top up their remaining 8 hours with some form of "community work" paid by WINZ or similar. If the current system is making someone in the scenario you describe worse off than someone on the benefit, then it is clearly sending the wrong message. I think you still missed the point? 30 hours for a couple is regarded by WINZ, department of labour, IRD as full time employment a single person the figure is 15 hours. My point really should have said someone working 30 hours per week on minimum wage has the same income as someone on a benefit. Except the working person most likely is paying travel to work costs! At 30 hours plus WINZ dont want to know you. As to your "Community Work" idea well define that? I Volunteer for both New Zealand Fire Service and the Rural Fire Authority, I give up a lot of time training and attending callouts for the "Community" yet we do not get that recognised as being work!!! Same with St Johns Ambulance and those are rolls where you got to know what you are doing to save lives and protect your own yet picking up litter in a park is classed as "community work" go figure? Your perception of a 40 hour working week is flawed!!! Because those kind of jobs do not exist in many parts of New Zealand. Myself I work for currently 3 employers to get some hours in and my partner has flexible hours as well both of us dicatated by weather and seasonal custom. Yet some weeks we find ourselves in situations we would be classed as unemployed and other weeks the income is there but the costs to travel to workplaces for a few hours work just about makes it not worth working!	coldfront (15814)
1160488	2010-12-12 00:46:00	True that. In addition, student allowance is considered to be largely unheard of in other countries. What was the recent kerfuffle all about in England's varsity riot?. Charles should have their heads lopped off, lol. Lurking.	Lurking (218)
1160489	2010-12-12 00:51:00	Fifty years ago, New Zealands unemployed were leass than 4 figures, and a large number of them were unemployable - So what went wrong, we started importing people, hundreds of thousands of them, and through to the mid eighties, NZ still had full employment, and even better no grievance industry, and no full time victims . The problem I can see was more recent than fifty years ago in fact it has been the last 10-15 years and the reason is not the permanant migrants that come into this country who brought skills but the temporary migrants travelling as backpackers with working visas . In 1995 a scheme was launched issuing 500 single entry one year working holiday visas to Brits under 30, In later years this was expanded to other Countries and then the numbers increased until now it is unlimited and even extended to open entry within 2 years . The reason to fullfill an employment shortage which went beyond just orchards they said . Now there is a situation where employers in many areas are not limited to hiring locals but this influx of eager backpackers who will do anything to pay for their trip . The result the wage bargaining chip is now gone and minimum wage is the take it or leave it option because a backpacker will do it . And there goes your Tax as well because that B/P is able to claim back some if not all the tax they paid while here . Result! Work given to entitled cheap labour that dont pay tax leaving local uemployed and a burden on the tax system which is not getting any money added by the people who take the jobs . Whats needed is to stop or restrict the issuing of temporary work permits . I witnessed an iniative by WINZ doing that a couple of winters back around here! It has now fallen on its face because the seasonal employers conditions of employment are not that inviting anymore . Another employer around here is complaining it can not hold onto good staff! Well there is a reason for that and that is crap pay and conditions slowly eroded in recent years even before the so called recession .	coldfront (15814)
1160490	2010-12-12 00:57:00	The above assumes that there is nothing to do. I think of all public areas that could be improved, old people who could be helped etc. We should be prepared to labour , if we want to eat. Catch 22 if the work was there to be done then there would be no unemployment. The fact is New Zealand likes volunteers to do something for free, yet they can not see how helping is actually doing something but still expect it to be done.	coldfront (15814)
1160491	2010-12-12 02:56:00	Doing good works for each other, such as elderly care, does not generate foreign earnings, and New Zealanders have an insatiable appetite for consumer goods, which are now predominently imported. If we do not earn sufficient foreign exchange to pay for our imports and invisables, we merely devalue our currency. $NZ1.31 = $A1.00 New Zealand's eternal problem for as long as I can remember is that the countries balance of trade was in or near deficit, and there is little to indicate that this unhappy external account situation will change in the forseeable future. A slow track to a basketcase banana republic without the benefit of bananas.	KenESmith (6287)
1160492	2010-12-12 03:33:00	I am talking of surplus labour. It seems to me that the situation in developed countries is such, that there will always be a surplus of labour and it's a question of what to do with that, good works is one answer, some new ideas are needed.	Cicero (40)
1160493	2010-12-12 04:56:00	To quote Cicero "I am talking of surplus labour. It seems to me that the situation in developed countries is such, that there will always be a surplus of labour and it's a question of what to do with that, good works is one answer, some new ideas are needed. " The trouble is there is too much surplus labour, the labour is not prepared to work for nothing,and one can't exactly blame them, and there are not enough people contributing to the tax base to make the costs acceptable in the long term	KenESmith (6287)
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