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Thread ID: 114618	2010-12-10 08:00:00	Beer Tax	Cicero (40)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1160474	2010-12-11 10:08:00	Not first hand, but I have relatives living in countries where there is no such thing as the unemployment benefit. If you don't work, you don't earn money, you don't eat. Here, while a lot of people are claiming welfare assistance for legitimate reasons - i.e. they've recently lost their job, suffered a crippling accident etc. - the fact that our welfare system allows generations of families to get away with never working a day in their lives shows that something is very wrong with the system. So are you suggesting that we ought to let people and their children starve to death or die because they can't afford healthcare? Where are all these jobs in NZ? As for the thread opener by some economist. Too clever clever by half. Economists!!! Aren't they supposed to know about money and how it works. Too bad they didn't see the world economic crisis coming.	martynz (5445)
1160475	2010-12-11 11:19:00	Not first hand, but I have relatives living in countries where there is no such thing as the unemployment benefit. If you don't work, you don't earn money, you don't eat. Here, while a lot of people are claiming welfare assistance for legitimate reasons - i.e. they've recently lost their job, suffered a crippling accident etc. - the fact that our welfare system allows generations of families to get away with never working a day in their lives shows that something is very wrong with the system. And what countries are these you refer to oh wise one? My referance was to the pointing out that this country actually lags behind some other countries with a social welfare system in place that does offer assitance rather than the user pays society that is New Zealand. Tax on Tax and even the so called handouts are taxed!!! Our system is far from fair as you may think it is or should say unfair luxury as you think it is. Our social welfare system is unfair in comparison to many countries in ways you would find hard to understand. How far do you really think the money paid out to someone on the benefit goes? Sure if you have no rent, mortgage, utility bills or transport it goes a long way. Yea people abuse it by buying beer and smokes and spending more than their budget allows but many many others struggle to pay the rent etc and basically survive. Yet a country I know of would cover that rent and utility bills and not tax food and childrens cloths and look after those who could not afford it with free doctors, denatl visits and perscriptions. Yet they have enough to survive. You know what I find most unfair with our social welfare system is its inflexibilty to actual help those who are trying their hardest in tough economic areas where the work is not there. You will probably say they should move yet many of them own houses and have lived there all their lives moving there before things changed, and yes things have changed and not all for the better. Whats wrong with the system is not creating the employment and helping maintain that employment. I know people around where I live that have never had full time work in their lives and it does not exist but they carry on with part time and casual work. Does the social system help them? Yes a little bit but not enough in my view.	coldfront (15814)
1160476	2010-12-11 20:13:00	So are you suggesting that we ought to let people and their children starve to death or die because they can't afford healthcare? Please read my second paragraph. The incentives here are simply wrong - welfare should be a helping hand for people in times of need, so that children don't starve to death or die from 3rd world diseases. It should never be a more attractive long-term option than going to work. Charities like Kids Can Stand Tall shouldn't need to exist in a country like ours which spends $24.2 billion on social welfare (note this does not include spending on health or education - that's another $12.7b and $12.4b respectively). The emphasis needs to be on tracking down those who are abusing the system and making sure that money is being used for what it should be used for.	somebody (208)
1160477	2010-12-11 20:43:00	My referance was to the pointing out that this country actually lags behind some other countries with a social welfare system in place that does offer assitance rather than the user pays society that is New Zealand. Tax on Tax and even the so called handouts are taxed!!! Our system is far from fair as you may think it is or should say unfair luxury as you think it is. Our social welfare system is unfair in comparison to many countries in ways you would find hard to understand. How far do you really think the money paid out to someone on the benefit goes? Sure if you have no rent, mortgage, utility bills or transport it goes a long way. Yea people abuse it by buying beer and smokes and spending more than their budget allows but many many others struggle to pay the rent etc and basically survive. Yet a country I know of would cover that rent and utility bills and not tax food and childrens cloths and look after those who could not afford it with free doctors, denatl visits and perscriptions. Yet they have enough to survive. . There are three issues here. First - tax. There's a fundamental issue where you call people earning $70k a year "rich pricks" and punish them for their success, like the previous government. Tax, which is a percentage of income, means even with a flat rate those who earn more pay more. Taxing taxes (rates) and taxing benefits etc. is just ridiculous and doesn't make sense. That needs to be changed. Likewise, I'm an advocate of policies such as that proposed by Peter Dunne where the first $x of income is tax free - it takes into account the bare essentials to survive, and is a lot simpler than the bureaucratic jungle that is Working for Families, and the various other "tax rebate" schemes. Taking money off people, run it through the government bureaucracy with people clipping the ticket along the way, only to hand some of it back saying "oh - you probably need this to pay your rent" is idiotic. Secondly, the approach of handing out money is just wrong. It creates too many opportunities for people to exploit the system - remember all the WINZ quotes scams, where beneficiaries would get overly inflated quotes for mowing their lawn, and just pocket the cash? That money would be much better spent, and better controlled, going to covering the cost of doctors visits, school "fees", school uniforms, state houses etc. for families and children in need. Give out food parcels, so you make sure kids actually have 3 square meals a day - healthy food too. Thirdly, a big part of the problem is the culture of entitlement in this country. People who get assigned a state house at one point in their lives think it's their right to keep it for life - even if their circumstances have changed, and they are now paying market rents. Same applies for people who had 3-4 bedroom houses, but the kids have now moved out. That housing should be given to those who need it most, it retained with their current occupants because they think they're "entitled" to it. The same apples to social welfare in general - it's not a "right" or an "entitlement" for taxpayers to fund your lifestyle. It's the collective generosity of ordinary NZers who are generally supportive of helping those in need, that offer assistance to people when they need it - when people lose their jobs, when people suffer debilitating injuries or diseases, and so on. You know what I find most unfair with our social welfare system is its inflexibilty to actual help those who are trying their hardest in tough economic areas where the work is not there. You will probably say they should move yet many of them own houses and have lived there all their lives moving there before things changed, and yes things have changed and not all for the better. Why shouldn't people move to find employment? If there isn't work there, then you should go somewhere where there is work. Staying in a small town with no jobs now, and no prospect of new jobs being created on the basis that someone has "lived there all their lives" is a ridiculous proposition. It's resigning yourself to the fact these people will live off the taxpayer forever, on one form of the benefit or another. People move all the time to find work - we've seen people on this forum like pctek, Metla et al. move so they can find work, rather than bury their head in the sand. Whats wrong with the system is not creating the employment and helping maintain that employment. I know people around where I live that have never had full time work in their lives and it does not exist but they carry on with part time and casual work. Does the social system help them? Yes a little bit but not enough in my view. You can't create employment when you punish those who actually create jobs for being "rich pricks". The people who own businesses, people who have money left over after paying their bills and want to invest it in this country. What sort of incentive is it to aspire to success when politicians want to slap an extra tax on you? You can't create jobs when the "tenth man (the richest)" who pays £59 for their beer, decides to move to Australia taking his business (and jobs) with him because he's sick of the way he's being treated here. Governments can't just magically make jobs appear in any sustainable way - only the private sector can do that. You can't create jobs when employers are scared of taking on staff, for fear that they can never get rid of them if they don't work out. Fortunately that's now changing for the better...	somebody (208)
1160478	2010-12-11 20:50:00	I admire your patience Somebody.	Cicero (40)
1160479	2010-12-11 20:55:00	I admire your patience Somebody. I've been working long hours recently, pay my taxes, and am sick and tired of people who think it's their right to live off my hard work. I am sick of people like these www.nzherald.co.nz who want to spend MY money on the black hole that is our current welfare system. I am sick of those who sympathise with those who rip off the system at the expense of those who are genuinely in need.	somebody (208)
1160480	2010-12-11 21:00:00	I've been working long hours recently, pay my taxes, and am sick and tired of people who think it's their right to live off my hard work. I am sick of people like these www.nzherald.co.nz who want to spend MY money on the black hole that is our current welfare system. I am sick of those who sympathise with those who rip off the system at the expense of those who are genuinely in need. You should know, that you are talking to the converted. It grieves me that you have to justify yourself to the like of whats his name.	Cicero (40)
1160481	2010-12-11 21:41:00	You should know, that you are talking to the converted. It grieves me that you have to justify yourself to the like of whats his name. I take your on the targeting again? No justifiction needed by somebody they do raise some interesting points of discussion and if you read again on a similer vain to what I was refering to up until the last couple of paragraphs which is when the differance of point of view is clear or not quite understood.	coldfront (15814)
1160482	2010-12-11 22:11:00	I've been working long hours recently, pay my taxes, and am sick and tired of people who think it's their right to live off my hard work . I am sick of people like these . nzherald . co . nz/nz/news/article . cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10693066" target="_blank">www . nzherald . co . nz who want to spend MY money on the black hole that is our current welfare system . I am sick of those who sympathise with those who rip off the system at the expense of those who are genuinely in need . I can see it from both sides of the fence having been forced to use the system to get by, and yes I can understand your frustration as well but also think yourself lucky not to have to get to that situation . Back in the old world I had a neighbour who I knew from school days and he rarely worked instead he had a couple kids got all the trimming and a council house while I worked to pay for my travels when I was younger . I never went without employment for more than a couple of weeks until the tide turned on me . NO I am not defending that lifestyle but what I am saying is that in some places it is unavoidable to not find yourself having to use the sytem as best as you can to survive and get by . You what irks me most is now I try to get as much money as I can in and a lot of that goes on travel to work expense to earn that money . Full time work as I said is a rare commodity in most areas of New Zealand and where I live it is strongly dependant on the weather as to how much work comes through . New Zealand thrives on Tourism and agriculture to provide employment! You probably take that for granted that the people in those Hotels, Motels, Shops etc when your on holiday are only working because you are there and they also live in those areas when you are not there, providing a service to you . So these people own houses etc yet because the work is not always there you expect them to move? Another situation is those that had meatworks, mills and other large employers that shut down leaving the towns high and dry with little employment? You expect them people to abandon their homes to chase work around the country? Who will buy those homes if there is no work? A catch twenty two situation . Ah but wait then we have the employers who pay minimum wage but can not guarantee the amount of hours! Where is the incentive for people to work? According to WINZ if your a couple and working less than 30 hours per week even with children you are unemployed and must look for work! Yet you could be working 32 hours per week on a minimum wage and be worse off than someone on the benefit because of your get to work costs . Hows that fair? Another missed spin off in the more rural locals is people have to travel out of the area to work the result is communities without the one thing you do not think about and that is the voluntery cover given to the Ambulance and Fire Service . Yet do WINZ take those efforts done by the unemployed being there into consideration? NO!!! But you can bet your bottom dollar you will expect that help to be there . There is more to the social welfare system than the simple black and white picture people think of the working or not and the can nots and will not work . Yes people are milking it and they are just a small fraction you will get anywhere in the world but what fix is there that will not strongly affect those that are trying their level best to get ahead without the help which is hard to get anyways .	coldfront (15814)
1160483	2010-12-11 22:30:00	Uh oh, free bear english.chosun.com	The Error Guy (14052)
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