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Thread ID: 114666	2010-12-12 19:35:00	Should the Police be armed	Digby (677)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1161168	2010-12-16 06:23:00	I'd like to put the reverse of this argument. OK none of us know the actual situation. But here's my take on it. If I was the cop walking back to my car, for a start I would not take my eyes off two young men (an old lady yes) Then if one of them came up behind me and hit me with the machete, I would grab my gun and turn around. Tell him to back off or else. Then I doubt if he would have hit me again. I think I would have had a good chance of living. I would much rather have taken that chance than to roll over on the ground and let them hit me with a machete and probably kick me in the head while in a fetal position where I had a good chance of dying. Yes but the key there is not turning your back is it not?	Twelvevolts (5457)
1161169	2010-12-16 06:24:00	Are you thick? It was such a stupid question that it wasn't worth answering. Hmmmm. Name calling then. If the question was not worth answering then why dignify same with a reply?	Snorkbox (15764)
1161170	2010-12-16 06:59:00	So the death sentence would stop murders according to your logic, so explain away the high US murder rate if you can. I can't be arsed to go back through previous threads but I remember posting stats. that indicated that the murder rate is lower in those states that no longer have capital punishment.	martynz (5445)
1161171	2010-12-16 07:08:00	In the context above it possibly really relates to crime committed by border hoppers from Mexico as they try to push another Bill through the Senate . I am a pretty cynical sort of Guy by nature and I am disinclined to make any assumption based on statistics . It's already illegal to murder a US citizen in the first place . It's an act of war to do so with intent to commit murder and cross a border to commit that crime . It's illegal to carry a weapon INTO the US across it's border to envisage such a crime against a US citizen or any group of the US Gvt . So the death sentence would stop murders according to your logic, so explain away the high US murder rate if you can . You've both got valid points . But there's more than that to it . 1) If executions were actually followed out, then the deterrent would be much more manifest . As it is - there are murderers sitting on death row who die of old age waiting for their execution orders to come through the 'channels' of justice . Four hots and a cot are the rule and then there's satellite TV and free medical/dental/maternity care for life if you stay that long - until you die of old age - but suffice it to say that all US jails really ARE Camp Snoopy . 2) NO sovereign nation should EVER be invaded by an army let alone a single person from another country and not have them held to point for it . 3) NO drug dealers should be using machetes and Mac 10s on US citizens in their beds at night and then go skipping across the border* and claim immunity from prosecution in the US - and have Mexico stand behind that claim . * officials followed the footprints to the border and they disappeared there, the prints obliterated by tires and other foot traffic . There is no extradition from Mexico for such activities by a Mexican citizen either - they must be caught in the act and then only if their civil rights aren't abused, may they then be arraigned for the crime with the permission of the Mexican gvt . . The laws of the nation invaded should be germane, and not the invader's national laws or lack of them and be held supreme . If you invade the US, you should be tried under US law, not the law of the country in which you legally reside . Try to invade Mexico and you get the firing squad in 24-36 hours, and the only delay is finding enough bullets for the police to use - in the correct caliber for their flintlocks and muskets . Too bad if you don't speak Spanish as an interpreter won't be provided for you . ONE invader is more than sufficient to hold the country of origin responsible if they don't want their citizen executed - but the whole defense of the criminal is on the shoulders of the US taxpayer . Since Mexico won't execute it's own citizens, and they say that the US cannot therefor execute Mexican citizens in a fair-trade situation, then it all falls into the crapper anyway . OH - they'll execute and US citizen by firing squad or hanging, but it won't work the other way around . Mexicans murders and criminals committing crimes here are ineligible for the death sentence and they know it . The illegal Mexicans claim US Constitutional Civil Rights . They aren't entitled to it, yet the courts constantly supply them with a copy of the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, not to mention The Bill Of Rights for legal defense, amd a bevy of American Civil Liberty Attorneys (The notorious ACLU) to defend them . Cripes! I can't even get free legal representation in a capitol offense case (EG: murder, mayhem and crimes against the US Gummermint . ) And I pay US taxes and should be able to have free legal if I don't have the money for a mounted legal defense . There's quite an undertow to these news reports surfacing and I bet it won't take long for some seriously armed vigilante groups to 'assist' in the border-sovereignty issue . Since Washington has turned a blind eye - Heck! Both eyes are blind - to this activity and refused to even accept that there is a border war going on - then someone will take the lead and just do-'er soon . .	SurferJoe46 (51)
1161172	2010-12-16 08:04:00	But here's my take on it. If I was the cop walking back to my car, for a start I would not take my eyes off two young men (an old lady yes) Then if one of them came up behind me and hit me with the machete, I would grab my gun and turn around. Tell him to back off or else. Then I doubt if he would have hit me again. I think I would have had a good chance of living. I would much rather have taken that chance than to roll over on the ground and let them hit me with a machete and probably kick me in the head while in a fetal position where I had a good chance of dying. Watching too many Bruce Willis movies Digby? In real life any cop that allowed a machete wielding attacker to take him by surprise would probably still lose. Broad has said that the lesson he gets from overseas is that guns only make a difference if they are used ie expect cops to hold people at gunpoint.	PaulD (232)
1161173	2010-12-16 08:09:00	The death penalty works We had the death penalty in the 50's and early60's and there were 12 murders a year. We took the death penalty away and now we have over 100 a year. They have the death penalty in Iran. If you murder someone you are tried and executed within a few days. It would be a deterrent in the USA if as someone else said you had one appeal and if you lost you were then executed right away at minimal cost. Now you can be on death row for 30 years at huge cost. My only concern is that in the US they have executed innocent men. So it should only be in cases where there is no doubt Or perhaps if the jury recommends it. Otherwise it must be life means life. We have had quiete a few murder cases here in NZ where it is not definite Eg Arthur Allan Thomas Scott Watson David Bain Mark Lundy David Taimihere But many others where the person is clearly guilty.	Digby (677)
1161174	2010-12-16 08:28:00	I can't be arsed to go back through previous threads but I remember posting stats. that indicated that the murder rate is lower in those states that no longer have capital punishment. Bad argument, the NE states which have no death penalty dont have the same rate of killings as the good ol boy ex condeferate states which have an use the killed by death penalty. Its a horse before cart situation.	prefect (6291)
1161175	2010-12-16 08:48:00	Bad argument, the NE states which have no death penalty dont have the same rate of killings as the good ol boy ex condeferate states which have an use the killed by death penalty. Its a horse before cart situation. Pointless debating with someone who turns facts and logic upside down.	martynz (5445)
1161176	2010-12-16 09:26:00	Hmmmm. Name calling then. If the question was not worth answering then why dignify same with a reply? A question is not name calling, you could answer no. The deterrent effect of the death penalty would obviously be on the remaining community if it worked, why you would think it would be on the deceased is beyond me. Either way - it doesn't deter anyone and even the sensible sentencing crowd has given up on the deterrent theory as the evidence clearly against it. So you're left with keeping people out of the community for longer, which for some offences is clearly warranted. However for the majority of inmates who are relatively minor offenders and longer sentences increase the likeilihood of reoffending, so thus the net effect is crime becomes worse (which is what you say is happening). However with regard death penalty, this seems to be a reasonably neutral site that presents facts. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org And then there is this for you to get your teeth stuck into about crime generally. www.huppi.com Better start turning your TV you paranoid types, maybe it is the TV that is causing the murder rate to increase.	Twelvevolts (5457)
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