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Thread ID: 117652	2011-04-27 21:53:00	Motor question	beetle (243)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1197822	2011-04-28 05:33:00	okkkkkkkkk............this is doing my head in,..................had to shoot to the supermarket at lunch break.............the light didnt go?????????? W T H? it was a little engine pic, glowing orange this morning, but now it doesnt..... i have a friend who is ex motor mechanic who i will pick his brains and see what he says this afvo after work........ and book in for a full service..... cant have this new babe of mine deing.........that why i got rid of the jeep..........which now resides at the local harvey norman shop where some young bloke drives it and works in the computer department.............my mouth is zipped on that info :p thanks heaps guys............ will get back to you, you are the best, always can count on someone knowing what to do or what might be wrong or need fixing..... i have only killed the steam mop, electric blanket (for the 2nd time) and thrown the iron across the room (accidently) and killed it... this week so thats 3.... i should be all good eh? :) beetle You did the right thing getting rid of the Jeep, although you may have been the luckiest person on the planet not having any problems with it. The Jeep is the most unreliable expensive to repair heap of **** on the road in NZ a Trabant, Morris Marina and old Skoda would be more reliable. Practically all garages have the computers now with software for jap and euro cars. I have a mate who looks at them for me for a slab of woodies and he pays the 5 to 7k for the software updates.	prefect (6291)
1197823	2011-04-28 05:57:00	I have a mate who looks at them for me for a slab of woodies and he pays the 5 to 7k for the software updates. Ironically the updates are probably only about that big in Bytes too...	Agent_24 (57)
1197824	2011-04-28 06:46:00	I know I shouldn't....but I need to know how you accidentally throw an iron across the room? :eek:	allblack (6574)
1197825	2011-04-28 06:53:00	A CEL that goes out by itself is called a SOFT FAILURE and may be from a loose filler cap for the gas tank . Make sure it clicks a few times when you screw it on . Other than that - about the only sensor that can 'repair' itself (although that's an inaccurate term) is the Oxygen Sensor when the ECM/TCM sees an OBD Readiness Monitor has not been solved for X-number of miles or kilometers and a concurring number of START-RUN cycles and it will set a code that can be removed with successive and correct OBD Readiness cycles . In other words - if the engine at start up plus a mile or kilometer or so has a device that has failed to talk to the ECM in a timely manner - it sets a Boolean flag and the ECM monitors that subsystem carefully for the next five or six duty cycles . Each start-up, driving a minimum number of miles/kilometers and a cool down to below a certain threshold will count as ONE OBD DUTY CYCLE . It may take a series of OBD Readiness Monitor Cycles to reset the CEL and make it go out . If your CEL relights again, you might need to recheck that gas cap and try to remember to NOT let this vehicle sit to warm it up for more than 30 seconds or so . It needs to be moving soon after starting it, albeit driving moderately for a few blocks - until the ECM/TCM goes into CLOSED LOOP where it can take over the full operation of your engine's fuel and spark management system . The threshold for the ECM taking over from OPEN LOOP to CLOSED LOOP requires all the sensors and monitoring devices to go GREEN and then the ECM can go into it's full operational mode . These thresholds are coolant temperature readings (CTS), air density/flow (MAF), altitude (BARO or B-MAP), alternator qualifying threshold voltages (AQV or DDS), RPM readings, cam or crankshaft position signals (CPS/CMP), etc . Confused? :confused::confused: Your CEL has NOTHING to do with coolant levels, oil levels, time of day, belts broken or slipping or checking to actually SEE if the engine's still under the hood or not . It's totally an emissions-control system and it needs to be monitored by the driver . Light's on? It sees something's wrong .	SurferJoe46 (51)
1197826	2011-04-28 07:25:00	Good explanation SJ, If the cap is loose, you mean a fuel pressure sensor sending a incorrect signal, hence the fault light on? But if not a loose cap, could it be still a fuel pressure related issue, e . g . injectors/rail/filter/regulator fault? If it takes a few cycles to make the light go out, i . e after successive readiness cycles, might that mean the engine still runs OK, albeit slightly less efficiently? Just curious . A CEL that goes out by itself is called a SOFT FAILURE and may be from a loose filler cap for the gas tank . Make sure it clicks a few times when you screw it on . Other than that - about the only sensor that can 'repair' itself (although that's an inaccurate term) is the Oxygen Sensor when the ECM/TCM sees an OBD Readiness Monitor has not been solved for X-number of miles or kilometers and a concurring number of START-RUN cycles and it will set a code that can be removed with successive and correct OBD Readiness cycles . In other words - if the engine at start up plus a mile or kilometer or so has a device that has failed to talk to the ECM in a timely manner - it sets a Boolean flag and the ECM monitors that subsystem carefully for the next five or six duty cycles . Each start-up, driving a minimum number of miles/kilometers and a cool down to below a certain threshold will count as ONE OBD DUTY CYCLE . It may take a series of OBD Readiness Monitor Cycles to reset the CEL and make it go out . If your CEL relights again, you might need to recheck that gas cap and try to remember to NOT let this vehicle sit to warm it up for more than 30 seconds or so . It needs to be moving soon after starting it, albeit driving moderately for a few blocks - until the ECM/TCM goes into CLOSED LOOP where it can take over the full operation of your engine's fuel and spark management system . The threshold for the ECM taking over from OPEN LOOP to CLOSED LOOP requires all the sensors and monitoring devices to go GREEN and then the ECM can go into it's full operational mode . These thresholds are coolant temperature readings (CTS), air density/flow (MAF), altitude (BARO or B-MAP), alternator qualifying threshold voltages (AQV or DDS), RPM readings, cam or crankshaft position signals (CPS/CMP), etc . Confused? :confused::confused: Your CEL has NOTHING to do with coolant levels, oil levels, time of day, belts broken or slipping or checking to actually SEE if the engine's still under the hood or not . It's totally an emissions-control system and it needs to be monitored by the driver . Light's on? It sees something's wrong .	kahawai chaser (3545)
1197827	2011-04-28 08:54:00	I know I shouldn't . . . . but I need to know how you accidentally throw an iron across the room? :eek: well . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . it was quite an amazing feat . . . . i couldnt do it again if i tried . . . . i laugh now but at the time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :o i was sorting out the washing zone, swept behind the washing machine, moved the dryer, did not realise the iron was sitting in the window on the sill . the window is above the dryer on another wall completely from the washing machine . . . . . the cord was dangling onto floor . . . . . . . i couldnt not see this or didnt notice i guess . . . was sweeping, and tired and in a hurry, swept and pushed broom round corner of dryer, felt something cause blockage . . . . . . . . . gave the broom a yank, and pulled back towards me in opposite direction from where the iron ended up . . . . . . . it sort tipped and held (this is when i noticed it) wobbled and bounced onto dryer and ricocheted off there across the room hitting the wall on other side and bounced back at my feet . . . . . . . . it went in the direction of the bar on a T while i was at the bottom of the stem T . . . . and it sorta snapped and has a large split up the middle . . . . . . . . i untangled the broom from the cord, picked up the iron . . . . . . and the rest iis history . . . . . . . . it did not make a mark on the window or the dryer or the other wall or on the concrete floor, but the iron no longer looks to be the nice symetrical shape its supposed to be . but it did fly sorta well considering its shape and everything . . . . . . . . . and considering i had hardly ever used it at all it has had a sad life being owned by a beetle . . . . :D beetle :D	beetle (243)
1197828	2011-04-28 08:59:00	A CEL that goes out by itself is called a SOFT FAILURE and may be from a loose filler cap for the gas tank . Make sure it clicks a few times when you screw it on . Other than that - about the only sensor that can 'repair' itself (although that's an inaccurate term) is the Oxygen Sensor when the ECM/TCM sees an OBD Readiness Monitor has not been solved for X-number of miles or kilometers and a concurring number of START-RUN cycles and it will set a code that can be removed with successive and correct OBD Readiness cycles . In other words - if the engine at start up plus a mile or kilometer or so has a device that has failed to talk to the ECM in a timely manner - it sets a Boolean flag and the ECM monitors that subsystem carefully for the next five or six duty cycles . Each start-up, driving a minimum number of miles/kilometers and a cool down to below a certain threshold will count as ONE OBD DUTY CYCLE . It may take a series of OBD Readiness Monitor Cycles to reset the CEL and make it go out . If your CEL relights again, you might need to recheck that gas cap and try to remember to NOT let this vehicle sit to warm it up for more than 30 seconds or so . It needs to be moving soon after starting it, albeit driving moderately for a few blocks - until the ECM/TCM goes into CLOSED LOOP where it can take over the full operation of your engine's fuel and spark management system . The threshold for the ECM taking over from OPEN LOOP to CLOSED LOOP requires all the sensors and monitoring devices to go GREEN and then the ECM can go into it's full operational mode . These thresholds are coolant temperature readings (CTS), air density/flow (MAF), altitude (BARO or B-MAP), alternator qualifying threshold voltages (AQV or DDS), RPM readings, cam or crankshaft position signals (CPS/CMP), etc . Confused? :confused::confused: Your CEL has NOTHING to do with coolant levels, oil levels, time of day, belts broken or slipping or checking to actually SEE if the engine's still under the hood or not . It's totally an emissions-control system and it needs to be monitored by the driver . Light's on? It sees something's wrong . Thanks Joe i will look into it a bit further and let you know if i find anything . . :) beetle	beetle (243)
1197829	2011-04-28 09:03:00	well . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . it was quite an amazing feat . . . . i couldnt do it again if i tried . . . . i laugh now but at the time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :o i was sorting out the washing zone, swept behind the washing machine, moved the dryer, did not realise the iron was sitting in the window on the sill . the window is above the dryer on another wall completely from the washing machine . . . . . the cord was dangling onto floor . . . . . . . i couldnt not see this or didnt notice i guess . . . was sweeping, and tired and in a hurry, swept and pushed broom round corner of dryer, felt something cause blockage . . . . . . . . . gave the broom a yank, and pulled back towards me in opposite direction from where the iron ended up . . . . . . . it sort tipped and held (this is when i noticed it) wobbled and bounced onto dryer and ricocheted off there across the room hitting the wall on other side and bounced back at my feet . . . . . . . . it went in the direction of the bar on a T while i was at the bottom of the stem T . . . . and it sorta snapped and has a large split up the middle . . . . . . . . i untangled the broom from the cord, picked up the iron . . . . . . and the rest iis history . . . . . . . . it did not make a mark on the window or the dryer or the other wall or on the concrete floor, but the iron no longer looks to be the nice symetrical shape its supposed to be . but it did fly sorta well considering its shape and everything . . . . . . . . . and considering i had hardly ever used it at all it has had a sad life being owned by a beetle . . . . :D beetle :D aaaaaaah . . . . . . . . . I am cognisant in The Ways of the Beetle, so this makes much sense . :D	allblack (6574)
1197830	2011-04-28 09:08:00	aaaaaaah.........I am cognisant in The Ways of the Beetle, so this makes much sense. :D and he is either laughing his head off or shaking it in disbelief again at what a poor little beetle gets up to in her world......:p it cracks me up even now........... but back then i could of smashed much more items....... and even mangled a toe...... barefeet always round here a lot...... :D beetle	beetle (243)
1197831	2011-04-28 16:06:00	Good explanation SJ, If the cap is loose, you mean a fuel pressure sensor sending a incorrect signal, hence the fault light on? But if not a loose cap, could it be still a fuel pressure related issue, e . g . injectors/rail/filter/regulator fault? If it takes a few cycles to make the light go out, i . e after successive readiness cycles, might that mean the engine still runs OK, albeit slightly less efficiently? Just curious . The fuel tank has an aneroid sensor in it (piezzo device, really and to save inventory, most manufacturers just uses another BARO sensor here) that when the ECM doesn't see a small vacuum created in the tank after a set time factor, it will light the CEL . It really has nothing to do with the fuel pressure after the pump - which is in the tank . There are times when the engine will be running with less than a full control situation from the ECM . It can default to a 'limp-home' condition in the worst of cases - but that's so rare that we never really see that in the shops . Limp-home is a condition where the engine cannot maintain certain prescribed parameters of it's emission related design and it will/will not allow some or all of the following: 1) 2nd gear (forward) only with normal Park, Reverse and Neutral . But there are lots more Neutrals to limit road speed and force the operator to seek qualified repairs . This is most times a transmission situation though . 2) Loss of full advance in the ignition to retard the timing and the operator knows that the engine is running badly and seeks help . 3) Modified fuel injection event or ON FUEL millisecond trim command time to diminish performance to cause the driver to seek professional help . NOTE::: this INJECTOR TRIM is expressed in milliseconds and actually a HIGHER number indicates that the ECM is attempting to lower the total fuel expressed by the injector to lean-out the cylinder, whereas a shorter TRIM value turns the fuel UP or increases the time the injector is ON and admitting fuel into the cylinder . Digitally expressed TRIM is a negative value, not a positive one . These OF COURSE are hard-failures and a bright red CEL will be lit or have been lit for an extended period of time . Fuel mileage and performance is severely curtailed to get the operator's attention . Don't ignore the little red light . In some owner's cases there should be a little hammer that comes out of the head rest to get the driver's attention . SOME vehicles use an ORANGE or AMBER CEL to tell the driver that a SOFT failure is happening and should be investigate ASAP - but if it turns RED it is always BAD! I've seen black tape covering a persistent CEL that the driver didn't want to notice or didn't care or just thought it was some sort of gimmick . BELIEVE THE RED CEL LIGHT - IT'S TALKING TO YOU!!! IF there is a problem - even a mundane one like a spark plug that is not firing correctly - the ECM will know (trust me - it does) and the CEL will come on and stay on until the condition is rectified . Remember that any difficulty that the ECM sensors see and report are all emission related really - and things like a bad plug wire (or in the case of Coil-On-Plug or COP ignition that the whole individual coil is bad) or low fuel pressure or a defective catalytic convertor or a failure to attain normal operating temperatures after a designated period of time or even a mechanical condition such as a burnt valve, faulty injector or broken exhaust pipe before the cat - these will all trip the CEL and it will not go out until either: A) a scan tool is used to erase the fault code or B) in SOME cases the soft fault has rectified itself . Don't count on B (above) to work for you though - this is a rare situation and is usually reserved just for the fuel cap which is out of the explicit control of the ECM (dumb humans drive ECMs crazy) . The sensors are looking for values that affect their voltage - either in their ability to flow current through them eg: the MAF sensor, TPS,, CTS thermistors OR they are sending voltage that they themselves generate eg: piezzo devices in BARO or digital signals from assorted tone-wheels in the Cam Position Sensor (CMP) or the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) or the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) and even the tone wheel generators at each brake rotor/drum that tell the ECM and/or the TCM the actual RPM of each wheel . BTW: TCM = Transmission Control Module whereas ECM = Engine Control Module . There are also BCM and DCMs to consider, Body Control Modules and Driver's Control Modules - these latter ones are for zone HVAC and seat memories . radio station presets, even pedal heights and sensitivities . SIDEBAR::: GM had an original idea in their Climate Control System (CCS) that would not allow chilled air from the AC to blow from under the dash onto a driver's legs until the temperature could be controlled with sufficient engine heat in the cooling system to offset the extreme cold of chilled air . The reason? To keep women's legs from getting a cold shot of air up under their skirts until the temperature could actually be moderated by the Climate Control settings with heated air mixed into the cold . Modern ECMs have a 'learned response' to the driver whereas it can read the chip on the ignition key of a driver (some at a distance of over 30 feet away) and know the driving characteristics of that person and create a driver's profile to maximize what it deigns as a best-response to their driving style . But as another key chip was brought near the vehicle, it's digital code was read to reset the parameter to that driver, so two different drivers had their own personal driving profile memorized by the ECM and it can act accordingly, giving each driver what they want while driving the vehicle . Like I said - these are sometimes capable of pre-adjusting mirrors, interior temperatures, seat positions, aggressiveness of shifting in the transmission, engine performance parameters, resetting the radio or CD or MP3 playlist, vehicle overall ride height and whether 'Sport' or 'Boulevard' driving profiles were needed by that particular driver via their personal digital chip code . Kinda neat - huh? One more interesting point to consider::: In some vehicles - the individual spark plugs are also used as sensors too . Let me explain . AFTER the plug has been fired to ignite the fuel charge at the appropriate time, the ICM (Ignition Control Module) 'sees' the ion stream that still exists across the electrodes of the spark plug during the 'waste cycle' or when the exhaust valve is open and the spent gasses are going out through the open exhaust valve . IF this ion semi-conductive stream is weak and easily gets 'blown away' or sheared and therefor acts as a strong resistor to ion flow, or if it is very strong and passes an electrical charge readily to ground the ECM knows that this individual cylinder's fuel charge-to-air ratio is wrong and can correct the individual injector to compensate for whatever condition exists . It gets mind boggling after a while . .	SurferJoe46 (51)
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