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Thread ID: 121000	2011-10-07 04:24:00	Ship at the Mount - need to reconvene PC World Rescue group	Digby (677)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1235929	2011-10-09 03:45:00	If they could move the ship around, why not move it off the reef ! The ship with the cranes on it idiot. :)	Trev (427)
1235930	2011-10-09 04:20:00	@ Digby. If the Rena was towed off the reef it would probably sink due to the hole(s) in it!!	Snorkbox (15764)
1235931	2011-10-09 17:37:00	I would imagine that they well move the ship around and lift the containers off from differant areas to balance the load. They can also use water ballast to try to keep the ship as even as possible. :) There is no need for personal insults ! In your post you mention the word "ship" twice. Once referring the mobile crane (but you did not make this clear in your post) and once referring to the container ship. If you had said "You image that they would move the floating crane around" I would have grasped the point of your post right away.	Digby (677)
1235932	2011-10-09 20:33:00	Let’s get a couple of things straight for a start. :) A hole in a grounded ship, if indeed there is one, is never smaller than when the grounding first occurred. That is why an attempt, successful or otherwise, should have been made to get it off on Wednesday’s afternoon High Tide. If it became clear that the ship would founder, then the tugs could always nudge it back on and move to plan “B”. But let’s examine what has actually happened in another context for the non-mariners. ;) At 2:30am last Wednesday a 111 call advised that smoke was billowing from the Beehive. Wellington Fire Commander is advised and calls National Headquarters. A meeting is arranged for 10am. The meeting decides that putting out the fire is the responsibility of whoever lit it and a Media Conference should be held. Come Thursday, it is still unclear who is responsible for dealing with the fire and nearby residents are getting real bitchy about the thick Black Smoke. Another meeting is held and it is decided that maybe someone should actually address the problem. Friday, it is decided that Fire Trucks should be sent but a decision needs to be made on whose. All Fire Services are put on Stand-by whilst a meeting followed by a Press Conference is held. Saturday, there are now flames as well as smoke billowing from the Beehive and the Fire Commander agrees it is out of his league so calls the head of the London Fire Service. He advises that he would need to take a look but a call to the New York Fire Service may be helpful. This is agreed and a Press Conference is called. Sunday, the New York Fire Commander seems to be reading from the same Prayer Book as the London Fire Commander and claims he needs to see first hand. It is arranged and another Press Conference is called. Monday, there are now 20knt winds fanning the blaze but “Flick” is on the scene. ;) To be continued.	B.M. (505)
1235933	2011-10-09 22:04:00	@ BM. If there was a fire at the Beehive just what would it have to do with the Rena?	Snorkbox (15764)
1235934	2011-10-09 22:39:00	@B.M, ah, but wouldnt the automatic fire sprinklers have put it out by then? :D or, the place could burn to the ground and then the NZ taxpayer has to fork out millions for the cleanup - now there is your comparison. Who paid for the PM to fly out and look at it, who pays for the Navy to patrol the 1km limit around the boat just for starters, we are, yours and my taxes. It has probably cost us 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousands already and it wont stop there. Cheers	Iantech (16386)
1235935	2011-10-09 22:55:00	@ BM. If there was a fire at the Beehive just what would it have to do with the Rena? Ahhhh, I knew I’d have to explain the parallel to someone. :lol: Let’s put it this way: If the fire Service responded to their Emergency calls by wringing their collective hands, having meetings, and procrastinating for days, then every fire would be out before they got there. Equally, if you were to have a cardiac arrest would it be OK for the doctor to organise a meeting with a Cardiologist who in turn chose to consult his overseas peers before any sort of resuscitation was started. Personally, I think after 5 days it might be pointless bothering with resuscitation. Do you get it now?	B.M. (505)
1235936	2011-10-09 23:27:00	Ahhhh, I knew I’d have to explain the parallel to someone. :lol: Let’s put it this way: If the fire Service responded to their Emergency calls by wringing their collective hands, having meetings, and procrastinating for days, then every fire would be out before they got there. Equally, if you were to have a cardiac arrest would it be OK for the doctor to organise a meeting with a Cardiologist who in turn chose to consult his overseas peers before any sort of resuscitation was started. Personally, I think after 5 days it might be pointless bothering with resuscitation. Do you get it now? Your analogy is not true and the Beehive is not going to sink. Stay being retired!	Snorkbox (15764)
1235937	2011-10-10 00:00:00	Trev . . . can you explain to us less knowledgeable folk . . . how the hell you're going to get a ship or barge with a crane attached, together with another ship or barge for offloading the containers onto, close enough to the stranded ship without getting into a situation where they themselves risk running aground . Heavy lift helicpoters, Lama's or Mils would be the easiest & safest way to do it, but again, it's expertise in knowing the weights of containers and which ones to take off first to avoid the ship rolling and splitting up . Let's face it . . . cost in this situation is secondary . Assuming the ship is grounded mid-ships and it's 200+ meters long . . . any crane would have to have a reach of no less than 100 meters, without taking into account any safe operating distances . I'm sure someone here will know the physics relating to lifting a full container on an arm 100 metres long, on an unstable platform, 50 meters from a reef . Excellent post and spot on . This is nothing like a burning building unless you had a private fire service (as used to exist) . . . based in the Netherlands . The NZ Navy fuel ship was full and had to be moved and then unloaded before it could help . When a ship founders the primary liability and responsibility lies with its owners . Not the government or taxpayers of the unlucky country . The owner must appoint a salvage expert who controls the job . The ship and its containers are private property and there are international laws regarding salvage . Not even governments have the right to instantly take control of a ship at sea . Maritime NZ has powers which it is using to order the owner to salvage and secure the site . Booms need to be anchored - this ship is at sea and in deep water, not close to a beach . The ship is seriously damaged - pulling it off will sink it along with a 1700 tonne oil problem . The Port of Tauranga would become liable if their tugs did this without salvage permission . Taking some containers and the fuel oil off may lighten the vessel enough to be towed to a beach/port . Its not near a beach . Helicopters need a stable base to operate from . There aren't any available at short notice . Some of the containers contain hazardous material - could be anything . The fuel oil is like treacle and the whole system is designed to take fuel on board: not to pump out while in the open sea . Its a difficult job . Over and above all of this, the whole situation is dangerous . How many deaths do you think are acceptable by cutting corners?	Winston001 (3612)
1235938	2011-10-10 00:30:00	So Winston how do you explain them trying to do now what should have been done days ago? Did their lawyer discover that a country has every right to deal with a threat to shipping and environment within its territorial waters? Now just imagine if a similar scenario were to occur in the English Channel. Can you see the situation being allowed to develop there as it has here?	B.M. (505)
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