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| Thread ID: 124859 | 2012-05-24 00:26:00 | How long do your UPS batteries last, and what is your preferred/recommended brand? | Billy T (70) | Press F1 |
| Post ID | Timestamp | Content | User | ||
| 1277012 | 2012-05-28 02:53:00 | A typical UPS does not even claim to protect from any of those anomalies. Except in advertising where subjective lies are legal. A UPS is made as cheap as possible. Car batteries in harsher environments last at least twice as long. Simply read UPS spec numbers. Near zero. Protection only from a surge so tiny as to not harm other appliances. A near zero number so that the naive will believe it does 100% protection. Even its output power (in battery backup mode) is some of the 'dirtiest' power in the house. Cleanest power is when a UPS connects appliances directly to AC mains. But again, a UPS is made a cheap as possible. Even degrades it batteries in only three years by doing almost nothing. That UPS has only once purpose. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Why 'dirtiest'? Because protection already in electronic appliances is so good as to make 'dirtiest' power from a UPS irrelevant. However do not power a power strip protector or motorized appliance from a UPS. That 'dirty' power can be harmful to some non-electronic appliances. BTW, underground or overhead makes little difference. A risk to appliances remains same. What a load of dribble for a first post. You can not compare a battery for an UPS with a car battery. If you are going to prattle on about how dirty the power from an UPS is you really need to provide a link or two to back up what you are saying. As for running electric motors off an UPS it has everything to do with the startup load and nothing to do with dirty power. Eg. A 240 volt motor that uses 5 amps can put a startup load of 7200VA and an UPS is not designed for that. You also need to consider as to if it is a square sine wave model or a true sine wave model. |
mikebartnz (21) | ||
| 1277013 | 2012-05-28 06:04:00 | What a load of dribble for a first post. You can not compare a battery for an UPS with a car battery. I agree! What a pile of irrelevant twaddle. Poster must have been drunk, high, or dyslexic to read that much rubbish into some straight-forward discussions on UPS systems. Yes, the output from a 'modified sinewave' (otherwise known as a stepped sinewave) UPS is rich in harmonics, but it emulates the RMS power output to an acceptable standard (and doesn't pretend otherwise) given that the circuitry of any computer PSU worthy of the name is quite capable of handling that input and producing its normal DC rails. My reference to those events was simply to indicate a number of situations that could cause an outage, for which a half-reasonable UPS would manage to keep the computer running long enough to close it down in an orderly fashion. Only an idiot would try to keep on working on UPS power, and only industrial grade UPS systems with back-up generators can maintain power for any significant length of time. I was involved in a test on the backup system at one of our overseas governmental installations and the run time was in hours, not days, because the diesel tank wasn't big enough, and the battery bank was stuffed, having been left uncharged for quite some time! Car batteries are of completely different construction to SLA technology; try leaving a car battery on float for three years or more! It would probably suphate a lot faster than an SLA which is designed to cope with that treatment. Pete S: You only need auto-shutdown software if you leave your computer running 24/7, often unattended, and with unsaved documents open. I never leave my computer without doing a Ctrl-S and I turn it off every night except Friday when it is set to do scans and updates etc, and before leaving it I make sure every program is closed. The worst thing that could happen, and did to me, is two outages in quick succession, the UPS failed due to a short-life battery and my RAID array had to rebuild, hence my purchase of a new UPS. I now have a switch under my desk so that I can turn off the mains input to the UPS at regular intervals for a real-world run test. Cheers Billy 8-{) Nearly forgot: BTW, underground or overhead makes little difference. A risk to appliances remains same. Very few vehicles choose to burrow underground to disrupt power, they prefer standing targets like power poles and transformers, so the hit rate is significantly higher, though men with diggers are an occasional hazard. |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 1277014 | 2012-05-28 06:14:00 | Which UPS brand / model did you opt for in the end Billy? | Chilling_Silence (9) | ||
| 1277015 | 2012-05-28 16:03:00 | I agree! What a pile of irrelevant twaddle. Why so much venom? And then you agree with me. That UPS has only once purpose. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Why 'dirtiest'? Because protection already in electronic appliances is so good as to make 'dirtiest' power from a UPS irrelevant. But then you have posted same without explaining why. An average UPS has a three year battery life expectancy. Facilities such as a telephone exchange get almost 20 years from their UPS batteries. But those systems, like those found in cars, are superior; more expensive. All use lead acid batteries. But a typical home UPS uses a cheapest solution. After three years, that cheaper solution may no longer provide power for one or multiple short outages. And not report how quickly it has degraded. Some replace their batteries every three years. But since UPS electronics are so cheap, then many instead spend a little more for a new UPS. UPS is made that cheaply. A UPS can provide startup current for a motor. But UPS manufacturers quietly note the problem. UPS power is so ‘dirty’ (excessive harmonics and other anomalies) as to be harmful to small electric motors. But that same UPS power is ideal where superior protection exists inside electronics. A UPS is temporary and ‘dirtiest’ power for electronics. Emotional denials and accusations are based only in hearsay. And with no hard facts or numbers. Even UPS manufacturers quietly state the problem. A UPS can easily provide that startup current. But power from a UPS is so ‘dirty’ as to be potentially harmful to motors and power strip protectors. Emotional accusations do not change reality. Underground or overhead lines make little difference. Similar electrical anomalies exist on both. Obvious once hearsay is unlearned. A typical UPS has a three year battery life expectancy because it is made as cheap as possible. Better and more expensive solutions found in cars and telephone COs. Why does a telco get almost 20 years from their lead acid batteries? Their UPS is superior, more expensive, and better designed. |
westom (16792) | ||
| 1277016 | 2012-05-28 21:35:00 | We have an orchard opposite us and every time they start up the massive pump motor to fill the sprayers, (direct-on-line,so it's quite old), my UPS beeps. Last week the pc just stopped dead twice, so I checked the UPS (2-3 years old) by turning off the main feed and sure enough, it wasn't working.Then it was! But sorry, no trust left in it. Went and got a Dynamix UPS1000. It uses the program Upsilon 2000 which I much prefer to the Winpower one on the ABB I had. |
Neil McC (178) | ||
| 1277017 | 2012-05-28 22:20:00 | Westom I agree that the responses were uneccessarily personal, but calling the power dirty over and over really doesn't prove any kind of point. The power isn't "dirty" at all, it's just a different waveform. And no UPS's can not supply much startup current, try and you'll blow something. Generally they are rated to maybe double the VA rating for momentary startup currents. An electric motor is fundamentally a coil of wire and is not easily harmed by feeding it the wrong waveform, sorry to dissapoint. Not all UPS are cheaply made, and some of the more expensive ones also generate a true sinewave or "clean" power. A couple of points to other peoples comments also, sulfation occurs when a battery is left sitting without connection to a charger for long periods and shouldn't really happen to a battery left on float. My suspicion is the batteries don't last long due to being very small and having very high occasional current drains and no regular charge/discharge cycle. A 300W load on a 12V battery = 25 amps and on a small UPS probably has a single 7AH battery feeding it. That'll drain a battery in a matter of minutes. The telephone exchange is a good example because the batteries do last a very long time in that application, which is not a UPS by the way. Exchanges run on 50 volt DC power, the batteries are on float across the rectifiers and provide the DC directly in the case of an outage. Many are coupled with an engine alternator as well. A key difference is these batteries are designed to run the load for a period of several hours and rated accordingly. Reduction of capacity over age is taken into account. Batteries last much better when they are discharged at a slower rate. These batteries have a regular maintenace program and their condition is monitored, totally different from a home UPS. If you're interested an average roadside cabinet has 4 x 40-44AH gel cell batteries in series , Haze is one brand used in this application. I wondered to myself if buying a 20-40AH deep cycle SLA and connecting it in place of the low capacity batteries in a home UPS would enable it to last many years as well as greatly improving run-times, but they cost too much for me to try it as an experiment. |
dugimodo (138) | ||
| 1277018 | 2012-05-28 22:54:00 | Previous comments indicate that it is more common than not to throw away the old UPS. I did a quick google and it seems the price for a 20-40AH deep cycle SLA might be around US$130 but no idea cost in NZ. Your comment reminded me of a conversation I had with a pal a week or so back who claimed he had a motorcycle battery backing up some home technology backing up gas fired heating and water etc. didn't go into details, but along this line; I wonder if there are older but high quality UPS brands being trashed despite quality electronics (and software?) for want of a more robust battery setup or do the electronics fail like mobos? Some reading seems to imply that after a lead acid battery has gone through its 'formatting' cycle of say 50 discharges then there can be a very long reliable 'peak' capacity which might (?) give better value for money. The inner nerd in me loves the thought of this especially with so much talk about integrating intelligent house systems with solar etc. I can see a good article looming here for any keen journo's - make your own quality UPS system with better longevity than those commercially available from throwaway stuff <g>. Being sensible thoughI guess the purchase of a brand new unit is the easiest. I notice Dynamix mentioned, that brand seems to be a popular stocked item near where I am, any other votes for that one? | PeteS (12500) | ||
| 1277019 | 2012-05-28 23:39:00 | Just purchased a Dynamix UP-1700 for a client....We have ABB 3000KVA here which uses UPS sentry....its ok, nothing flash! | SolMiester (139) | ||
| 1277020 | 2012-05-29 00:16:00 | Not all UPS are cheaply made, and some of the more expensive ones also generate a true sinewave or "clean" power. Correct. And again, put numbers to it. I repeatedly discussed a "typical" UPS. That is not the $1000 UPS necessary to output a 'clean' waveform. For example, a "typical" UPS was called a sine wave output. That 230 volt output was really 400 volt square waves with a spike significantly larger. And yes, a square wave is nothing more than a sum of "pure sine waves". So the manufacturer did not lie. He just played most consumers as fools. Even high school math explains it. Square waves are a sum of pure sine waves. Advertising calls that square wave output a sine wave UPS. And most consumers assume a myth. Square waves can be harmful to small electric motors. That spike can be harmful to power strip protectors. Any UPS can be sized to even provide startup current for a small motor. And still, that UPS may harm that motor. As I said, a UPS is made as cheap as possible. Even noise generated by a nearby orchard can cause a UPS to switch to batteries. A switchover even when voltage is more than sufficient. That UPS also did what is common with a "typical" UPS. Because it is made as cheap as possible, then its battery may typically fail in three years. And noise causes it to switchover to batteries. Even automobiles use more sophisticated controllers so that auto batteries last longer. Apparently that reality make some emotional. |
westom (16792) | ||
| 1277021 | 2012-05-29 00:33:00 | Emotional denials and accusations are based only in hearsay. That is rather rich coming from you who has not provided any link to this so called dirty power you keep prattling on about. Why does a telco get almost 20 years from their lead acid batteries? Their UPS is superior, more expensive, and better designed. Once again you show you don't really know what you are talking about when you compare the batteries a telco uses and an UPS battery. You could buy several complete UPS systems for the price of one of those batteries and they will have banks of them not just one as most UPS have and they are deep cycle batteries. The telco's also ditch them well before they get anywhere near 20 years old which is a BS figure anyway. You will get ten to twelve years out of them depending how well looked after they are. The telco's often ditch them after about six years as they can't afford problems and I know several people who are on alternative power who will get about another five years out of them. |
mikebartnz (21) | ||
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