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Thread ID: 125150	2012-06-09 10:23:00	Manners maketh the prospective son-in-law???....	ReefRunner (16049)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1280834	2012-06-10 10:00:00	Now, as a woman, why do I need a car door opened? Or need to walk through a door first? In fact, at work, when the guys come back in, I generally let them all go first. Simple common sense. I am much slower at going up the stairs than them. Fact is, you don't pctek, but good manners were ingrained in some of us from an early age and we do those things out of respect and consideration toward others, not because of some perceived or mythical inferiority/superiority complex, archaic or otherwise. However, I suspect that you would probably mutter something under your breath about ignorant bast**ds if you were trampled underfoot by a hoard of rampant rugby fans, or some young kids barged past you in a queue. Courtesy may be considered old-fashioned, but as some of us were taught, it is neither demeaning nor an indication of weakness or inferiority in any way, it is simply politeness and respect for elders and others, male or female as the circumstances may dictate. If some young kid barged past Mrs Metla and knocked her down, or pushed her aside to queue-jump, I am damned sure that Metla would not let that go by, but why not? By his declared standards it is perfectly acceptable for some young kid or even an old bast**d to be disrespectful or discourteous to his wife. As for the stairs issue, I understand that well. For medical reasons Mrs T is very slow on stairs, both up and down, and mindful of her slowness, whenever possible we let others go first. Generally speaking she is treated with great kindness and respect by males of all ages, and I have to say that young schoolboys and polynesian schoolboys in particular are generally very polite and helpful. Their female counterparts are more in the Visigoth mould. Heaven forbid that we end up in an "every person for themselves" society, where nobody gives a damn about simple courtesies and shows zero respect for the views or beliefs of others. Last time that attitude ran through history we ended up with 'vandals' and 'vandalism' as new words in our lexicon especially to describe utter disrespect for people and property, with Huns and Visigoths folllowing not far behind. If my daugher had a boyfriend who wore such a hat and declined to remove it, we'd probably have dropped them both off at McDonalds and gone home, however in reality it would never come to that, because she would have sorted it long before it got to that stage. It would be a simple 'me or the hat' choice, and not as an ultimatum either, it would have been a considered decision, and final. We are all entitled to choose, to suit ourselves, the standards by which we wish to live, but we don't have to invite to join us those whose standards are incompatible with the way in which we live our lives, or who have no ability to understand the difference. It is called freedom of choice, and it cuts both ways. Cheers Billy 8-{)	Billy T (70)
1280835	2012-06-10 10:22:00	This has gone way too far. How can you possibly compare pushing past a woman on the stairs etc to wearing a hat? *** get some perspective and stop comparing apples to 747's.	DeSade (984)
1280836	2012-06-10 10:33:00	By his declared standards it is perfectly acceptable for some young kid or even an old bast**d to be disrespectful or discourteous to his wife. If this act of disrespect was by the wearing of a hat, Then yes, Perfectly acceptable. Its a hat after all. A HAT. Though again, if you can explain the reasoning for the offense I'd love to hear it. The comparisons you are trying to make are weak, An insult to both our intelligences.	Metla (12)
1280837	2012-06-10 10:35:00	I suggested that he should remove his cap and a discussion ensued as to the rights and wrongs of his being required to do so . He eventually complied with my request and the meal progressed under a cloud . I try not to be too old-fashioned when it comes to manners . . . Any opinions on this, was I right or wrong or just being too old-fashioned as my eldest daughter insists that I was? :confused: I don't think you are making a big deal of this: you are clearly puzzled as to whether you have been unreasonable on a small matter of courtesy . Good on you for asking . Personally I'm with you - my 17yr son (beside me at this moment) immediately said he'd remove his hat . No mystery . Manners are the oil which smooth the rough edges of social interaction . Without manners we'd be a harsh abrasive society . Its impressive that this lad rang you later . That takes courage . He sounds like a keeper . :D	Winston001 (3612)
1280838	2012-06-10 10:40:00	In recent years I've noticed young clients not removing their hats and I have mentally shrugged. Many parents do not teach this courtesy so its not the kids fault. What I do find difficult are people who not only wear a billed hat but sunglasses as well, indoors. Human eye contact is crucial for any meaningful conversation: baseball hats often obscure the eyes and sunglasses make it more impossible to see the other person.	Winston001 (3612)
1280839	2012-06-10 10:50:00	Finally for those interested, the social pressure for removing headgear goes back to the days of kings. In times past status (= power + authority) included headgear. The king, the lord, the bishop, the mayor, the village elder, the doctor - all of these people could be immediately identified by their clothing and their hats. Doffing your own hat was a mark of respect. Removing your hat indoors signified you were not trying to dominate others and recognised any people of power. Contrastingly, women were expected to wear hats indoors if they were middle class and above. Doubtless there was some interesting sociology at work. From memory my mum expected to wear her hat in church in the 60s so its a social convention which lasted for centuries.	Winston001 (3612)
1280840	2012-06-10 10:52:00	Okay guys, the next move is mine . . . Our dog died about 6 months ago so I will replace the Beware of the Dog warning sign with one which requires would-be male visitors to remove headgear, shades, nose and other facial piercings and any other visible adornments which I may from time to time find offensive . BTW my wife advises that she really appreciates it when I stand to greet her when she enters the room at a formal or semi-formal gathering, most modern men do not extend that courtesy (sign of respect) to the love of their lives . It's now time to let this topic rest, it's been fun reading the various responses . Cheers .	ReefRunner (16049)
1280841	2012-06-10 11:24:00	BTW my wife advises that she really appreciates it when I stand to greet her when she enters the room at a formal or semi-formal gathering, most modern men do not extend that courtesy (sign of respect) to the love of their lives. It's now time to let this topic rest, it's been fun reading the various responses. Cheers.I wonder how this works in a same sex relationship?	plod (107)
1280842	2012-06-10 21:26:00	Should HAVE removed , not should of. If we are going to be pedantic now, then let's go on about people with terrible grammar. Thank you for correcting me.	wmoore (6009)
1280843	2012-06-10 21:32:00	What if the guy was Jewish and the hat was that little skull cap thing they wear, is it still acceptable to ask him to remove it? Because I have the manners and the respect to allow their genuine religious views to take precedence. Just because YOU were taught it and YOU were brought up with it does not make it right for now, it might have been right back then but not now, the world moves on, so should you. Not specifically. Why forget what we were taught yesterday? What do we stand to gain from ignoring the instructions of those senior to us? Well, I bet you, if he'd been wearing a hoody she'd have probably locked herself in the car until somebody "nice" had come along!! I probably would have. When you're that old, you don't have the luxury of running in the event you make a bad judgement. Sure, it sucks, I've been judged for my tattoo, or for bleaching my hair, but anybody with a drop of compassion can understand why and don't let it phase them. I can report that the young man phoned me to apologise for his actions, or lack of action, after having talked over the incident with his parents. I'm not saying that this validates my opinion on the wearing of headgear at the dining table but in the given circumstances he has accepted that he should, without hesitation, have removed said headgear when requested to do so by his hosts. He will be welcomed in my home and at my table as opportunity arises. Good on him! I know that takes a lot of guts, sounds like a momentary lapse in judgement on his behalf, and although he was strong-willed enough to debate it at the time, being humble enough to later apologize seems like a good trait. Now, as a woman, why do I need a car door opened? Or need to walk through a door first? On my first date with my now wife, I opened the car door for her. She's physically perfectly capable of it, but nonetheless it's something she still remembers fondly to this day. She's asked I don't waste time doing it any more, but she still appreciates that I will take the keys, open the door, and hold it open as she walks through. I do that for pretty much anybody, granted, as a sign of humility and respect. Are those really such bad traits to aspire to? I was brought up with so called "British Upper class" manners. Quite simple, do not wear a hat indoors, raise your hat to a woman when greeting them in the street, walk on the pavement side nearest the road (protected the woman from slops being thrown out of windows), don't put your elbows on the table, pull back a chair for a woman etc etc. Likewise, or standing and offering your seat to a woman / somebody your senior. Not so much the walking on a particular side of the pavement though, but still :D Fact is, you don't pctek, but good manners were ingrained in some of us from an early age and we do those things out of respect and consideration toward others, not because of some perceived or mythical inferiority/superiority complex, archaic or otherwise. Agreed Courtesy may be considered old-fashioned, but as some of us were taught, it is neither demeaning nor an indication of weakness or inferiority in any way, it is simply politeness and respect for elders and others, male or female as the circumstances may dictate. If my daugher had a boyfriend who wore such a hat and declined to remove it, we'd probably have dropped them both off at McDonalds and gone home, however in reality it would never come to that, because she would have sorted it long before it got to that stage. It would be a simple 'me or the hat' choice, and not as an ultimatum either, it would have been a considered decision, and final. We are all entitled to choose, to suit ourselves, the standards by which we wish to live, but we don't have to invite to join us those whose standards are incompatible with the way in which we live our lives, or who have no ability to understand the difference. It is called freedom of choice, and it cuts both ways. Well said! :) BTW my wife advises that she really appreciates it when I stand to greet her when she enters the room at a formal or semi-formal gathering, most modern men do not extend that courtesy (sign of respect) to the love of their lives. As I'm sure most would too, and good on you for doing it. What woman in her right mind wouldn't like to be shown respect by her husband? Mine certainly appreciates it too!	Chilling_Silence (9)
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