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Thread ID: 23617	2002-08-20 08:59:00	Attention: Systems and Network Administrators/Engineers	Sam H (525)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
72753	2002-08-21 05:16:00	Yeah. Some people enjoy it so much they go back for a second dose. [I must be mad....]	Heather P (163)
72754	2002-08-21 05:46:00	Part time is difficult. Needs a lot of dedication and self-discipline. There are always more interesting things to do (like watching television ;-)) and getting home from work wanting to relax but with homework to do ... It's not impossible, but ... Of course, some fulltimers find other activities other than study to use/waste lots of time, too.	Graham L (2)
72755	2002-08-21 21:35:00	Sam It's mostly who you know and not what you know. I got my first three jobs with people because I knew them or someone who knew them. After that my experience helped a lot. Even now, a lot happens because of people I have helped before (or worked with ten years ago). I would recommend you do Bursary, and a degree helps. I have a degree in accounting and management, and being a qualified accountant as well as a geek is an awesome combination of skills. I have some MCSE passes (three plus Excel) and they really don't count for much, I hardly ever mention them. It is very hard to go back to school later. As to how you prove you are any good in an interview, it's tricky. Some people are crap employees but great at interviews. If someone is late, then I mark them down. It comes down to how well you get on with them and if they sound like they know what they are talking about. I interviewed IT managers a while back and there are plenty without personalities (sorry, but it's true). My best advice comes back to the top of this post, be nice to people, help people who have problems on their PC at home, and then you might find they help you get a job. It's karma, dude. robo.	robo (205)
72756	2002-08-21 23:02:00	>It's mostly who you know and not what you know. I got my first three jobs with people because I knew them or someone who knew them. Not entirely true Rob. We've employed plenty of people here over the years where the process came down to reviewing CVs, short listing from those and then interviewing. Then based on the interviews making a final short list. Second interviews sometimes followed - sometimes it came down to the people involved sitting around and giving their views on the interviewees. So there were several hurdles for the job seeker. 1] Having a good CV - when looking for an network manager several years ago we had several applicants who either had a degree or were part way through one. We were looking to hire a part timer, so a couple of applicants who were working on finishing their degrees and wanted part time work fitted in well. But the fact they were working on the degree made them stand out ahead of others who had limited practical experience. And they had good CVs, which indicated an ability to communicate clearly and to discern what was important an focus on that. CVs that wander all over the place and tell you what food the employee’s pet likes to eat don't impress. So these guys progressed to round two, the interview ... 2] Doing a good interview. Rob has mentioned how some IT managers he interviewed didn't have much personality. Being able to come across well in and interview is very important. You can't assume that just because you’re applying for an IT job, that dressing like a slob and staring at your shoes for the whole interview is going to be acceptable. In fact, many IT jobs require you to interface with dumb us .... with other people, and good communication and confidence is something an employer will be looking for. In the case of our two applicants, at the interview one immediately stood out as having confidence, good communications skills and yes, he fitted in with our personalities. This latter point should not be over-looked - employers are looking for a good atmosphere within their teams and will naturally lean torwards people they think they and the other staff will get on with. 3] Practical experience. Graham L mentioned how doing study part time can be very difficult, and it’s true. (hey, I found it impossible to do fulltime…). But everything else said about the importance of a degree notwithstanding, there is always an element of employers looking for someone with practical experience. If you have the degree, and the degree only, you will be at a disadvantage against other people who have the degree plus actual experience. New (as in new to their career) employees can be very expensive for a company, as you end up paying them to learn on the job, degree or no degree. But very experienced employees cost more to hire. So an employer is always looking for best bang for buck – finding someone with the best qualifications and experience willing to accept the salary being offered. In the case of getting your first full-time job out of varsity, if you can show not just the degree but work experience from part time work, complete with a reference, and you’re happy to take the crap money being offered, you’ve jumped a major hurdle. A second point about part time work while studying, is that it can lead directly to full time employment. I work with two people right now who were hired as part timers while studying – both are now full time.	Biggles (121)
72757	2002-08-21 23:09:00	I concur with Bruce, I have done a lot of hiring of staff. The major hurdle is getting an interview, as that places you on equal footing (despite any educational differences) If you need a degree, its to get you to the interview. Attitude and impression are about 80% in my view, as you shouldnt have made the interview stage without the ability. Another important thing I always applied, was that abilities can be learnt but attitudes dont change.	godfather (25)
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