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Thread ID: 31398	2003-03-20 21:15:00	The big linux problem	E.ric (351)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
129692	2003-03-21 10:32:00	?:| I feel like i missed something here. The desktop stuff is easyer on SuSE than 98. The only reason i use the doze box at all is "kazaa" and the fact i'm too lazy to move the CD burner. mind you.. whatever i missed, i hope i keep missing! .Clueless	Clueless (181)
129693	2003-03-21 11:17:00	> Linux will never be an out of the box operating > system until the big money hits it. How about IBM investing $1b in Linux? That happened a year ago. They also have a Linux development centre with 200 full time employees with nothing to do but "make linux better." :) Have you tried Red Hat 8.0? It's quite newbie friendly. > Trouble is it is really a bit of a geeks tool > designed by a geek (Linus) who already knew what he > was doing as he had been working with Unix for years > & just adapted Unix as a cut down version for the > desktop (no GUI of course) Well actually Linus only created the kernel - The GNU Foundation should be the ones credited with creating the base system. > None of them had the money or resources of the > competitiors, so it has stayed basically a geeks > tool. I'm not quite sure how to answer that. The major distributors employ coders to improve different open source software, so it benefits everyone - its not as if the modifications are being lost - thats one of the things the GPL helps to prevent. For example, Red Hat hires quite a few GNOME coders - their job is to hack GNOME (The guy who works on Nautilus comes to mind) and make it better. This ends up benefitting all the distributions. > Because it's still freely downloadable & swappable, > the companies still producing distros struggle to > make ends meet & don't have the development resources > others have. (I see Mandrakesoft are filing for > bankruptcy) I believe Mandrakesoft had to declare bankruptcy due to a bad investment or business deal they made a while ago. Not because they had trouble making money. Red Hat don't have a problem making money from GNU/Linux - they made a profit in the last quater of 2002 (about $300,000 IIRC - not bad considering their overhead) > It will never become a serious desktop contender > until big business sees it can save them some big > money. A lot of people see that already, but they have their hands tied to the microsoft platform - after all, you can't change at the wave of a stick. > By that I mean there are no comprehensive accounting > & finance packages available for the average business > yet (although I believe a group of CHCH geeks are > working on a major app) Watch this space, there could be something quite interesting happening here. > Some banks etc are now using solely Linux but have > There are no decent alternatives to Photoshop, Tried "The GIMP"? It's pretty complete. > So until there are apps to match whats available > under windows, it will remain a bit of a geeks tool. I disagree with that - I find that about 80% of people use their computer for 4 things - Web E-mail Word Processing Instant Messaging There are (many) open source equivalents for each of these functions.	segfault (655)
129694	2003-03-21 13:45:00	How about IBM investing $1b in Linux? That happened a year ago. They also have a Linux development centre with 200 full time employees with nothing to do but "make linux better." Have you tried Red Hat 8.0? It's quite newbie friendly. Yep I was aware of IBM's "investment" & with IBM's history of proprietary hardware & software you can bet they will want a return on it & won't be working for the betterment of the open source community. I believe Mandrakesoft had to declare bankruptcy due to a bad investment or business deal they made a while ago. Not because they had trouble making money. Red Hat don't have a problem making money from GNU/Linux - they made a profit in the last quater of 2002 (about $300,000 IIRC - not bad considering their overhead) That would make an annual profit of 2m, not exactly enough to have investors knocking their doors down. M$oft spend more than that on donuts each year. Watch this space, there could be something quite interesting happening here. So I have heard & I'll be 1st on the bandwagon if it is anygood. Tried "The GIMP"? It's pretty complete. Been using GIMP for several years, it is quite good but really doesn't hold a candle to Photoshop which I use more often than not. I disagree with that - I find that about 80% of people use their computer for 4 things - Web E-mail Word Processing Instant Messaging There are (many) open source equivalents for each of these functions. I disagree with that, todays computer users have a vast range of options to put their computers to greater use than just email etc. eg. Video & digital cameras, gaming, Music & other CD & DVD viewing & burning, graphics manipulation etc. I've been using the various browsers & email apps on linux for several years & none of them come close to OE & IE for ease of use & compatibility. Haven't tried 8.0 yet, I'm currently using Mandrake 9.0 (which is pretty cool, & RedHat7.3. I'll be trying 8.02 as soon as I can get my hands on it.	Stumped Badly (348)
129695	2003-03-21 20:30:00	GIMP vs Photoshop I have used both. Every thing that i actually do in photoshop (so far) i have also been able to in GIMP. Having said that, it is probably obvious that i mainly just resize and touch up images. I've played with GIMPs effects, but don't actually use them. I think that most Joe Blow computer users would do little more than this. On the other hand my better half does small wonders in photoshop. GIMP would not be a replacement for her. I also agree that most computer users just use the machines for surfing the web, IM, email, word processing. Konqueror, Gaim, Kmail, & star or open office provides an "out of the box" answer to all of these. I must also agre that it's a bit of a mystery tour finding plain english help for Linux. However i must say that finding plain engish help for 'doze when i started using computers 6(?) years ago wasn't that easy either. The problem in both camps is that the people wanting answers often don't know what the words mean. The people offering answers do, so to a newbie answers read like "Skroc the dimble whosit with a 300 hetting flif, that'll fix it!" This is perhaps why much of the better help sites for both systems are the independantly written ones. For Linux newbies www.startlinux.co.nz is an excellent resource! No offence to those who keep telling me to use the online documentation, but the "official" Linux documentaion seems to assume that those needing help know the terms for what for what they are looking for. I for one often don't. .Clueless	Clueless (181)
129696	2003-03-21 23:00:00	Interesting discussion with many good points being raised. One of the best books I own is Red Hat linux 7 Weekend Crash Course 15 Hours by Naba Barkakati It is broken down into 30 sessions that should take around 15hrs to complete. Also comes with full version 7 with all documentation. I'm not sure if he has written any newer versions. It was so easy to learn & written in plain english. Even if you are using a later version, you wouldn't go wrong by getting your bookshop to get you a copy and run through it a couple of times. Everything will still be relevant to newer distros. Next best reading is Running Linux 3rd edition (4th is now out) by Oreilly	Stumped Badly (348)
129697	2003-03-22 03:01:00	It's not a Linux problem. It's a people problem. There is an idea around that it's easy to use operating systems and computers. That foolish idea is traceable to irresponsible advertising. There seems to be an idea around that *nix works exactly like "another OS", or that it "ought to". It bloody well doesn't. And it shouldn't. Hardware is all different. An OS will support hardware which is popular enough to be "necessary", or is owned by someone capable of writing the code. Some manufacturers of hardware won't provide the information needed to write code. The Linux documentation has lists of hardware which is known to work with Linux, and hardware which is known not to work. There are known problems with internal modems, because Linux is not Windows. The problems are known. there are lists of modems awhich are known to work, and ones which are known not to work. If you aren't prepared to read the information, don't complain if things don't work. Some people ask silly questions, which show that they have not read the instructions. After the first few hundred times you have seen the same silly question, you tend to give "terse" responses. This happened in the newsgroups decades ago, so FAQs were invented. The problem still occurred. There's a site called rtfm.mit.edu just for the FAQs of all the main newsgroups. People still won't read the Fine Manuals.	Graham L (2)
129698	2003-03-22 04:06:00	> Linux will never be an out of the box operating system until the big > money hits it . True I guess . . But what about Lycoris - damn that's good! Excellent replacement to XP, looks similar, for that added 'feeling at home' for the 'new geek' . By this I mean anybody who's new to computers . . becoming a geek ;-) > Trouble is it is really a bit of a geeks tool designed by a geek (Linus) > who already knew what he was doing as he had been working with > Unix for years & just adapted Unix as a cut down version for the > desktop (no GUI of course) Not really, I know for certain its more than a bit of geek tools . If you want geek tools, why not look for them on doze . . might cost you some extra $$ but there's probably these 'geek tools' you talk of . > Being open source, every wannabe geek had a go at creating their > own version . > None of them had the money or resources of the competitiors, so it > has stayed basically a geeks tool . MMmmm . . . That's why there've been things such as UnitedLinux, and Linux OS's supporting RPM's! AFAIK, it began off standing for RedHat Package Management, but now stands for RPM Package Management, being a sort of eternal loop ;-) > It's strengths have always been security & a stable platform for web & > server applications . Its Strengths have been . . . but it is becoming noticed more as a user-friendly desktop system . . . I dunno bout you, but I was fed up with 98 when it began crashing 6-7 times a day! Im not kidding you! I run Linux now for weeks without a crash . Although in saying that, Im in XP now (WLAN stuff . . . ), and I simply never let the family PC get that bad - I format it when it crashes 3 times in one day . . Guess what OS is next on the list? Its already installed . . Bootloader and all, just waiting for me to change it to the default in Grub, and Im over . . . Im setting up the modem etc, so when XP dies (Its going so darn slow at the moment) I can move over in a matter of hours . The family PC currently has these OS's installed: 98 2K XP and now RedHat Linux 8 . 0 > Because it's still freely downloadable & swappable, the companies still > producing distros struggle to make ends meet & don't have the > development resources others have . (I see Mandrakesoft are filing for > bankruptcy) This has already had another statement made which hits the nail right on the head . . RedHat are doing great AFAIK! > It will never become a serious desktop contender until big business > sees it can save them some big money . Big businesses do! You're setting up an In-House web server to host a basic website . . . The websites been made you just wanna get it online . Do you fork out a couple of grand for Win2K Enterprise Server? Or do you set your cable connection downloading RedHat 8, install it, and point 1 config file to the correct location on your HDD! Thats all there was to it for me? I borrowed and burnt the CD's, and had webhosting going in a matter of seconds! > By that I mean there are no comprehensive accounting & finance > packages available for the average business yet (although I believe a > group of CHCH geeks are working on a major app) My boss from the Cyber Cafe does Sales/Support for NZHO and NZPro, so Im thinking of asking her if I can take home a demo and try it out on Linux, running it under WineX! Its a great proggy that can emulate a lot of windows functions! A few days back, I was using WineX to run a natively windows program called No$GMB . Its a Gameboy emulator . I was running Linux . . Emulating Windows . . . Emulating a Gameboy! Now that's pretty impressive IMHO! > Some banks etc are now using solely Linux but have had apps > specifically written for themselves . Yeah . . . Well, if you're a bank, the software's not gonna be circulating over the net freely is it for things such as your Teller PC's . . . You're gonna have to have it written specifically anyways! > IBM & HP were reported to be investing several million this year but > that will no doubt be on server technology for their own products . Whatever suits them . They've got the choice of Doze or Linux/Unix . If its for servers . . Linux is so much cheaper in most cases! > Once big business puts some big money behind it, there will be cash > for the development of apps available on windows now, for us joe > bloggs's . What like? As Joe (My nickname . . . short for my real name :-)), I use WinAmp, Web Browsing, IM, and Email . . but that's via the Web . Why cant I do this in Linux? Obviously I do use my Webcams which dont have Linux drivers, so I need to be in doze for that, but there is becoming increasingly more support for Linux everywhere! It came with all the drivers for my mobo, sound standard, Whereas doze didnt! > There are no decent alternatives to Photoshop, windows based > games, Graphical web design tools etc etc . I know there are a lot of Linux alternatives for WebDev stuff . Photoshop has GIMP which comes with most distros, however it is certainly no match for the Real Deal :-) Doze Games? I can play a lot of my doze games in Linux now, thanks to WineX!! > So until there are apps to match whats available under windows, it will > remain a bit of a geeks tool . There are - Just find them and use 'em ;-) > They can dress up the desktops as much as they like with pretty > backgrounds etc, but until the OS's are as user freindly as windows > they will remain something for wannabe geeks to say "Ooh, I can use > Linux" Which of course is fairly easy to do if you are willing to spend > the TIME to learn what's required . Yeah, I agree . Its certainly not for everybody! My mum uses the PC to receive emails and play Spider Solitare - That's it dude - nothing more! She doesnt really care how the world looks, provided she can get those emails every morning and afternoon! Ive talked to her and she couldnt care less what OS I put on the family PC . Currently its got traces of 2K/98 on there . . Its had all those OS upgrades in the past 5 months! XP's on the way out, going as slow as anything now . . . Dunno why, so RedHat is next . . Might try Lycoris after that, and probably back to RedHat or XP . . Maybe Mandrake . . there's so many . . . . Im spoilt for choice! As for the sibblings wanting to do homework etc . KOffice has everything you need to do word processing and stuff :-) > As a Linux user for some years now I do appreciate the lack of > sensible "plain english" help available . Me too - that's why PF1's so great :-) > From my own experiences the Linux learning curve is a solitary > frustrating experience, the biggest problem is that there are about 1/2 > dozen ways to do everything, & 2 dozen ways to balls it up . LMAO - So bluntly said, yet its so true . Samba was my biggest put-off from Linux . . Not much help . . but I finally managed to scrap together bits and pieces from peoples messages and get it working! Im just hoping there's gonna be a bit more of a friendly reception when I download smbmount . . . ;-) > There are websites & books coming out almost daily on the subject & > I'm sure it's going to get easier . Yeah . . . Its getting there :-) > By my reckoning at least 95% of those who try linux, dump it & put it in > the too hard basket after a few weeks of frustration for exactly the > reasons you quote & sadly it will stay that way for some time to come . Yep - Most people come in with the understanding that its a Doze CLONE - Its NOT! Its different, and like Windows, it requires learning at first to understand it! Mac's the same - you gotta realise how to use it and all! > But as sure as Bush will get to Bagdad, the Tux will get to the desktop > (eventually) I certainly hope so :-) ************************************** > It's not a Linux problem . It's a people > problem . Yeah, you're right - Its all about the mindset as I mentioned before . Its not a Windows CLONE - and that perspective will be accpted as people try it out I guess :-) > There is an idea around that it's easy to use > operating systems and computers . That foolish idea > is traceable to irresponsible advertising . There > seems to be an idea around that *nix works exactly > like "another OS", or that it "ought to" . It bloody > well doesn't . And it shouldn't . I agree - Why would you want a Windows Clone - Something different I think is what makes it attactive ;-) > Hardware is all different . An OS will support > hardware which is popular enough to be "necessary", > or is owned by someone capable of writing the code . > Some manufacturers of hardware won't provide the > information needed to write code . The Linux > documentation has lists of hardware which is known > to work with Linux, and hardware which is known > not to work . There are known problems with > internal modems, because Linux is not > Windows . The problems are known . there are > lists of modems awhich are known to work, and ones > which are known not to work . If you aren't prepared > to read the information, don't complain if things > don't work . Although, in saying that, WinModems were not meant to run in Linux, but people have got them too . Where there's a will, there's a way to do it in Linux ;-) . . I hope . . ;-) > Some people ask silly questions, which show that they > have not read the instructions . After the first few > hundred times you have seen the same silly question, > you tend to give "terse" responses . This happened in > the newsgroups decades ago, so FAQs were invented . > The problem still occurred . There's a site called > rtfm . mit . edu just for the FAQs of all the main > newsgroups . People still won't read the Fine > Manuals . Yeah . . FAQ's - There's so many of them . "Check this Website, the answers are there" "RTFM - Its the only way" Those sorta answers are great if you're short for time, but in reality, people dont wanna be told to RTFM . . Rather be told "Read the part in the manual that discusses Networking" etc . Its becoming more popular . . . and so more people will understand it . . . Its getting there . . and shaking ground along the way . Its being developed to the way the people want it . . . and there's so many distrobutions there's something that'll suit most :-) That's my 2Cents worth . . . not intended to be flame starting materials, but just my open-for-debate views :-) Cheers Chilling_Silence	Chilling_Silence (9)
129699	2003-03-22 06:59:00	Wine....Hmmmm.....Don't you need something on the C drive to run it? Hmmm.... People problem! Yep nail on the head! That's why I don't bother to answer a lot of questions on this forum unless I think it is coming from a total newbie with a genuine problem or an experienced user with a curly one. Some people use forums because they are too damn lazy to sort it out themselves. Tha amount of times the same posts come up time & time again (2 on this page at the moment about partitioning & backup) & people haven't used the FAQs or a serach or done a google dump before posting amazes & mystifies me. The satisfaction of solving a problem by doing a bit of digging on your own is great. You have fixed the problem on your own, but most of all you have learnt something, "How to solve a problem" which makes the next one easier to solve (maybe) Even more satisfying is when you have exhausted your own problem solving skills, that there are forums such as these to help & the knowledge that someone "out there" will help is also great. Basically a lot of posts on this and other forums comes down to laziness & the expectation someone will do it for me. rant...rant...	Stumped Badly (348)
129700	2003-03-22 07:08:00	What you grew up with is what you'll like the most, unless you spend considerable time and effort with something else. Windows is only "easy" because it is what you know. I'm sure that if I grew up with a *nix based system I would find Windows hard to use. But I didn't, I grew up with Windows and a little bit of DOS. It's like when I first used a Mac "now how the heck do I get that floppy out", that was back when they had floppies though ofcourse.	-=JM=- (16)
129701	2003-03-22 09:31:00	> Wine . . . . Hmmmm . . . . . Don't you need something on the C > drive to run it? Hmmm . . . . Nup! Its a linux only thing . . no Windows needed to have it run . Maybe with the 'real Wine', but not WineX, as it makes a folder that emulates the C: drive :-) I made a post reviewing it a while back . . didnt have the nicest reception, so Ive put the idea of reviews on hold for now :-) > Tha amount of times the same posts come up time & > time again (2 on this page at the moment about > partitioning & backup) & people haven't used the FAQs > or a serach or done a google dump before posting > amazes & mystifies me . > The satisfaction of solving a problem by doing a bit > of digging on your own is great . Yep, but like my WLAN problem . . I cant find STUFF ALL on google about it . . experts exchange arent much help at the moment either . . . > You have fixed the problem on your own, but most of > all you have learnt something, "How to solve a > problem" which makes the next one easier to solve > (maybe) > Even more satisfying is when you have exhausted your > own problem solving skills, that there are forums > such as these to help & the knowledge that someone > "out there" will help is also great . > Basically a lot of posts on this and other forums > comes down to laziness & the expectation someone will > do it for me . > Right you are :-) > What you grew up with is what you'll like the most, unless you spend > considerable time and effort with something else . Yep, apparently 75% more Mac users are online than Windows users . . Dunno why that is . . . Its just what you grow up with . > Windows is only "easy" because it is what you know . I'm sure that if I > grew up with a *nix based system I would find Windows hard to use . But I > didn't, I grew up with Windows and a little bit of DOS . Yeah, Im sorta at home with the CLI coz I began with the good ol' C64! > It's like when I first used a Mac "now how the heck do I get that floppy > out", that was back when they had floppies though ofcourse . lol - been in similar situations . . Linux "How do I eject the CDROM!?!?! I want it out and the damn thing wont eject . . its like its dependant on it now?" then I tried eject cdrom and it worked :D	Chilling_Silence (9)
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