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Thread ID: 36321	2003-08-06 04:40:00	The "Sky" thing	John Grieve (367)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
165785	2003-08-07 02:43:00	Right one last dig. It would appear it is not illegal to watch a cracked sky UHF signal. Overseas where there is protection of the signal it is in either the Radiocommunications law or Telecommunicatiopns law and the protection specifies exactly that decoding an encrypted signal for pay tv services is illegal. Hours of careful searching of said laws here comes up with.....nothing. There are no laws against the type of software used to crack the signal. The only option appears to be fraud BUT you only commit fraud when you actually steal something. You would only be stealing something if you had "intent" to pay for it. If you have no "intent" to pay for it then you have not stolen anything at all as sky loses nothing when you never intended to subscribe anyway. For it to be theft in this situation there needs to be a specific law stating it is illegal to decode encrypted TV signals which does not appear to be the case. This is my final attempt to find out the law under which you could be charged, so as long as you all do not answer this irritating little thread will wend its way to the back page and we can all rest easy in our lack of knowledge. I mean, have any of you not wondered why sky has not dealt with this. Is it because they came to the same conclusion as me that technically there is no law saying it is illegal to decode skys UHF signal?	John Grieve (367)
165786	2003-08-07 03:35:00	Hi, I'm trying to find the details of what you want to know. A guy called Jeremy B from chch posted it on his site about a year ago, much upset and media coverage; and a flurry of downloading later it was removed. The point is, there was some legal argument which ment he had to remove it, or face legal consequence. when I find it I will post, but if you search to,we may find it.	Curious George (3535)
165787	2003-08-07 03:39:00	www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=1148 his problem was probably that he was seling the cards, not especially decoding the signal?	Curious George (3535)
165788	2003-08-07 04:08:00	That link doesnt apear to work. And all computer shops sell the cards that can do it,any tv card based on the btxx8(or something close to that,cant remember the exact chipset name)is able to pickup the sky signel,then its a case of using the freely available free software to decode the signel. The guy who caused all the uproar i believe simply published instuctions on how to do it,which was unnessacery anyway as the people who made the software run an excellent forum and boasting about it on a nz hosted site was only ever going to bring unwanted attention....or maybe he was after attention.	metla (154)
165789	2003-08-07 04:34:00	I bought this up because my personal feelings dictate I understand exactly why a thing I want to do is illegal. For instance I would love to drive a car at 200mph down the southern motorway but by a law I can see in the law books that applies to everybody equally I am not allowed to so I do not. Somebody showed me (not on my PC hence I cannot do it at the moment) how it was done as I am a naturally curious person and I love my PC's and want to know how they do things and at the same time I increased my personal wealth of knowledge. In researching all the facts I discovered what you point out, that some people have been forced to remove information from the web related to this because doing this was "illegal". And I feel I have every right and in fact an obligation to myself to find out what law makes it illegal. I am not a lawyer so searched through various methods using relevant keywords for any laws relating to this specific situation. I also extensively researched US, British and Aussie law related to it. So after all that which has taken several days I still cannot pin down the exact laws that make decoding a sky UHF signal illegal so I thought wheres the best forum in NZ to ask about this with a vast range of members with a wide knowledge base and an unabiding wish to know the facts and here I am :D Sorry :D	John Grieve (367)
165790	2003-08-07 05:26:00	Probably the easiest example to give would be the phone line. With the right know-how you could tap into a phone line (perhaps even a cellular network, to bring this example closer to UHF signals) and make calls using that system without paying the right fees. You aren't physically taking something, however a service (the phone service & the UHF tv service) is still regarded as something that can be sold etc. (same with electricity, which might be even easier to tap in to than a phone signal), therefore if you gain access to it without paying for it, it would be considered as theft. Otherwise there'd be no legal issues with my avoiding the power meter and tapping straight into the power line running past my house, as I'm not physically taking anything :) Cheers, Mike.	Mike (15)
165791	2003-08-07 05:40:00	Mike you actually reinforce my point. Now I am sure with a bit of a search I will turn up specific laws that exist as words on paper to do with both Power and Cellular networks. Otherwise there would be no law to enforce and you would be allowed to use both without paying. Will you accept that proposition? So where and what laws are governing sky UHF decoding? If you want I will search out links to laws about power and cellular to prove myself...........or you could accept that laws against taking power and cellular do actually exist.	John Grieve (367)
165792	2003-08-07 07:15:00	i'm not a lawyer so i'm gonna pretend to think i know the answers however John your analysis is flawed, you say you've been searching the net for specific examples. Why do you think a specific example has to exist for something to be illegal. The NZ law system does not run on a system whereby something must be explicityly written for it to be illegal. By decoding the signal, you would be stealing property which doesn't belong to you, if you then used that property to make a financial gain that would be fraud and on it goes. Its not a case that there is nothing explicitly written about it therefore it must be ok, it's a case of applying the general principals of society (of which we base our laws upon.) If you want it any simplier, "it's stealing" stealing is illegal.	roofus (483)
165793	2003-08-07 07:28:00	John the following excert is from this link ( . med . govt . nz/pbt/broadcas/digitaltv/submissions/digitaltv-submissions-01 . html" target="_blank">www . med . govt . nz) . Its not exactly what your after but, it shows there is discussion along the line of the topic, by the powers that be . [clor=blue]Repeal Section 88 TVNZ says that the provisions of sections 88 and 166 of the Copyright Act are contrary to the Berne Convention, and at odds with basic equity . TVNZ notes that the FCC has recommended to the United States Congress that a similar provision in US law should be repealed . The World Intellectual Property Organisation is also considering the matter in a draft treaty on the rights of broadcasting organisations . Expanding the provision to satellite would only make matters worse . SPADA, the TBC, CanWest and Triangle Television agree with repeal, the last two adding that any rights to carry any channel should be subject to commercial negotiation with programme rights holder . Technology Convergence Important - Open for Wider Discussion NZOA says that copyright issues should be addressed in a wider forum, since it affects television, radio, Internet and other new technologies as they emerge and penetrate . Widen Section 88 Sky believes that section 88 should be amended to allow retransmission of free-to-air broadcasts by satellite, if broadcasters choose to do so . This would require far less regulatory supervision than an open access regime . Such an amendment would facilitate the transition to digital television . Exclude Education from Copyright The Auckland University of Technology requests that educational institutions are excluded from paying copyright if the purpose is for education . [/color] Another cut and past re scanning and decoding: Is it illegal to own a Scanner in New Zeland? No . Is it illegal to listen to Cell Phones? No it is not illegal listen to anything in New Zealand, but acting on the information, which could be just recording it on cassette tape is illegal . The Regulations are interpreted by Scanner listeners usually in a way that suits what them best with no consideration of any regulations or at least pretend not to understand them! . My advice is only share frequencies to those you know and keep the rest to yourself . Sounds a bit dodgy to me but, again along the same line but not quite there yet . Now that you have me going too, maybe a division of labour is called for, any suggestion re searches to avoid repeats? Cheers Murray P	Murray P (44)
165794	2003-08-07 07:39:00	What general principles? Are you talking morals? Whose moral imperatives are the accepted ones? Islam or Christianity or rich peoples or Labour or National or the Greens? You appear to be saying there are laws that are not on the law books . How does that work? You make up anything then prosecute somebody? For the law to be broken there must be an actual law surely? It is not illegal to break a law that does not exist . Will somebody please just specify the law which would be used as the reason someone would appear in court . Or are there laws which are not actually laws in some way in that they do not appear in our legal documents outlining what is and is not legal? Are moral imperatives law? If Sky charged somebody they would have to show to the courts a law that covers what they are charging the person with . What law? Isn't that simple? I accept it may be illegal and would not dispute it BUT is it actually illegal?	John Grieve (367)
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