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Thread ID: 36704 2003-08-18 06:10:00 Good on Ya Paradise.net Steve Askew (119) Press F1
Post ID Timestamp Content User
168351 2003-08-19 07:52:00 Xtra have been doing that for years drys (347)
168352 2003-08-19 09:32:00 I was concerned about that too. Ideally they should just insert an extra header like spam assassin and leave it up to the recipient.

According to a press release I saw they will be using brightmail which will move the spam to separate folder instead of deleting it immediately. 		bmason (508)
168353 2003-08-19 09:39:00 > Xtra have been doing that for years

You'll find it hasn't been that long that Xtra have been doing this.

Personally I think Paradise's announcement is pretty poor considering there is no information on their web-site or in the e-mail as to how this spam filtering is going to take place.

So I phoned their helpdesk, only to find the staff member there didn't know how it worked, if I could opt-out, how to opt-out, what happened to spam messages and so on.

The best information so far seems to be from the IDG/ComputerWorl article. 		whiskeytangofoxtrot (438)
168354 2003-08-19 09:46:00 > Why don't they do it for free for all their customers
> - why should I pay more for what should be a standard
> service anyway? After all, doesn't ISP stand for
> internet SERVICE provider? It's in their best
> interest to do this so let them do it as a matter of
> course.

Why should an ISP bear the fairly hefty cost of setting up and maintaining server based virus scanning?

It is not the responsibility of an ISP to play safekeeper of all that is the internet, and they shouldn't be expected to bear the cost of it. Most ISP's end up continually going outisde their boundaries with people expecting service well outside the scope.

ISP helpdesks continually field calls resolving viruses, printers not working, right through to not being able to program the VCR - I kid you not I have experienced these calls myself.

Take for instance the Blaster worm which has just torn through computer systems. If the end user took responsibility for their software updates it would have been of minimal impact considering a patch was released over a month ago. The ISP I work for was one of the few in NZ who placed port blocks on the ports being used by this virus, however we have still dealt with in excess of 300 phone calls in the first 5 days, and countless more after since this virus.

This is at significant cost to our organisation in man-hours, toll-calls, bandwidth and so-on.

You have to be realistic about what you expect of an organisation, if you pay $35,000 for a car do you expect the dealer to come to your aid when you have a flat, or to come round to change your oil and check your coolant every couple of months? I doubt you do - you take it as your responsibility - as you should your IT security.

[/rant]

An no I won't reveal which ISP I am employed by. 		whiskeytangofoxtrot (438)
168355 2003-08-19 11:09:00 press release here (www.telstraclear.co.nz). bmason (508)
168356 2003-08-19 11:23:00 Its the reason ISP's owned by the likes of whiskeytangofoxtrot go under, fully out of touch with there clients.
Thinking that the client serves them not the other way around.

I remember the days when you could have to wait a couple of hours to get connected to your ISP during peak hours. Clients didn't like this so ISP's adapted.
Computers are mainstream now, people own them but don't know the ins and outs of them, thats why its good to have ISP's (there first port of call to the internet) there to help them.
Take for example how many people who own cars know how to strip the engine and put it back together, in proportion of car owners its probably about 1 - 2%, think how many people who own computers know how to configure there email, internet, progs etc i'd say its up around 30-40%, so in that respect ISP's have it easy.

Maybe its time for a whole ideology change within ISP's Maybe ISP's isn't the acronym they should have, maybe it should be CSP's (computing service providers) but with people like whiskey its unlikely to happen. (definately not the entreprenuerial type) 		roofus (483)
168357 2003-08-19 13:34:00 > Its the reason ISP's owned by the likes of
> whiskeytangofoxtrot go under, fully out of touch with
> there clients .
> Thinking that the client serves them not the other
> way around .
>
> I remember the days when you could have to wait a
> couple of hours to get connected to your ISP during
> peak hours . Clients didn't like this so ISP's
> adapted .
> Computers are mainstream now, people own them but
> don't know the ins and outs of them, thats why its
> good to have ISP's (there first port of call to the
> internet) there to help them .
> Take for example how many people who own cars know
> how to strip the engine and put it back together, in
> proportion of car owners its probably about 1 - 2%,
> think how many people who own computers know how to
> configure there email, internet, progs etc i'd say
> its up around 30-40%, so in that respect ISP's have
> it easy .
>
> Maybe its time for a whole ideology change within
> ISP's Maybe ISP's isn't the acronym they should have,
> maybe it should be CSP's (computing service
> providers) but with people like whiskey its unlikely
> to happen . (definately not the entreprenuerial type)
>

Let me clarify a few of your blatantly spouted misconceptions . I do not own an ISP - I am an employee of one .

It is one of New Zealands largest ISP's (in the top 5) - our helpdesk supports a wider range of OS's, programs, and faults than any other ISP I have dealt with, and trust me I have dealt with plenty .

Your car analogy is full of holes - sure very few people know how to strip them out, but they don't go back to the salesman demanding they fix it, and the larger problem I refer to is ISP's expected to support things that aren't internet related, such as printers, VCR's and so on .

Calling an ISP because Word crashes or your printer won't print, or someone put a hairtie in the floppy drive and expecting free assistance . from an INTERNET service provider isn't really fair on the company providing the service .

If you were around back when the internet was pretty new you would have an idea how much the costs of home internet access etc have come down - there is very little margin in it so obviously taking the tack of limiting the scope of assistance is pretty fair .

I've got customers with over 150 support calls logged for repeated problems such as re-ordering the messages in OE, changing the size of the start bar and so on . If your idea of becoming "CSP's" hold true the price of internet access would have to skyrocket to cover the cost of fielding these kinds of calls .

It's fairly obvious when you look at an ISP such as Paradise who will only support W98 and above running IE 5 or IE 6 and Mac OS 8 running IE or OE . They are cutting down their scope pretty tight and will not assist with anything else - I'd bet money it's in the interest of cost .

Look a bit further afield to the newer cut price ISP's who provide 0900 helpdesk only, places like IHug who will only set your DUNS up once, places like Xtra who not only won't let you POP your e-mail outisde the network but will damn near hang up the minute you mention something vaguely unrelated to internet .

Like it or not - that is the way the industry is moving .

And as a final word, the ISP that I do not own, but work for is a hell of a long way from going under, and it is the people like myself and other staff there that will go out of our way to assist with extra things that helps keep our client base so loyal - I won't knock that for a minute . I merely point out that the expectations placed on ISP's are quite unrealistic when you relate it to any other industry .

Further analogies can be provided on request . 		whiskeytangofoxtrot (438)
168358 2003-08-19 16:15:00 >Like it or not - that is the way the industry is moving.

meh,The customers define the industry,not the companies,people will use an isp where they get the service they pay for,not pay for crap arse service from an arrogent company.

well,i supose i only speak for myself,and i cant image a scenerio where i would have to ring a helpdesk....

.................HA.

As for isp's screening mail for viruses i objected strongly to it when xtra implemented it,i never recieved any reply...... 		metla (154)
168359 2003-08-19 21:45:00 I prefer to look after my own virus and spam checking.

I prefer to configure my computer and programs myself.

I don't want an ISP doing it for me.

Going back to the car analogy.... I don't want the dealer driving me around and changing my flat tyres either.

:-) 		Elephant (599)
168360 2003-08-19 21:56:00 whiskey i think you've clearly shown your archaic views. The fact that you had to try and pick holes in a brief analogy shows that you lack a customer focus,

and for your info i was around before the internet, in the days of 9.6k modems and BBS's

So i know how things of changed, how kind of you to NOT point out that some of the reason prices for internet have dropped is because the price per MB that you pay has dropped. Yes ISP's are squeezed for margins and yes hundreds of ISPs have popped up over the place economists call it "COMPETITION"
You moan that margins are squeezed and customers want help within things unrelated to the internet, like i say isn't this a call for a move from ISP to CSP........ i wouldn't ask you to fatham the idea because i know you've already got your mind set 		roofus (483)
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