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Thread ID: 129509 2013-02-25 23:37:00 Minimum wage rise - thnak goodness it was ony 25cents Digby (677) PC World Chat
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1330071 2013-02-26 06:32:00 I wonder how many of you saying minimum wage is ok would be prepared to accept it if you lost your current job and couldn't get another, I bet you wouldn't and would say oh know I won't work for that its beneath me

As one of the ones saying it's OK, I say it out of first-hand experience. Oh, I hated it at the time, but it was enough money to get by on. We never went without power, water, food, heating - the essentials. And occasionally managed to go out for dinner or a movie. Couldn't get all the toys and gadgets, but then, they're nice-to-haves not must-haves. In hindsight, it was very good for us, as it made me realise that I can't just cruise along and expect everything to be fine, I have to be the one to make things go positive for me. It's noone elses's responsibility but my own.

Injurys and illness suck, and can be the spanner in the works. I applaud those people with the strength of character to find a way to soldier on and not give in to the bludging option (although, depending on the illness/injury, in some cases it can be warranted imo - and I do think in cases where the issue is genuine, there should be more assistance than there is, just sadly, fakers and fraudsters abuse it to ruin it for all). In most cases there are options. I had a friend who was a tradesman for many years, then duffed his back a bit - left him semi-paralysed on one side. Couldn't do his work properly anymore. For a while it shook him, went on a benefit etc. He'd pigeonholed himself into always being the man on the site doing the job. But after time he realised that he could use his knowledge of the industry in a hands-off role, and found himself a management role with a mid-size company that required the first-hand knowledge of the role, but didn't need the hard labour aspect of it.


Bull either we are all worth it or no one is

I respectfully disagree - from an economic sense, everyone is not worth the same. If 99% of people have the same knowledge and skills as you do, or can easily acquire said knowledge and skills, don't expect to be valued the same as someone whom only 1% of people share the same knowledge and skills. And if you're not prepared to put the effort / risk / whatever-is-applicable in, the same applies. Sorry, it might sound harsh, and it'd be fantastic if everyone could contribute evenly, but that isn't the reality at the moment. But would it really be fair if the guy cooking chips at McDonalds got paid the same as the cop putting his life on the line to help people every day?

As with anything, there are always exceptions. Some people, unfortunately, get a raw deal through no fault of their own, and that sucks. I wish there was a good way to support these outlier situations without opening everything up to fraud and corruption. 		inphinity (7274)
1330072 2013-02-26 07:04:00 As one of the ones saying it's OK, I say it out of first-hand experience. Oh, I hated it at the time, but it was enough money to get by on. We never went without power, water, food, heating - the essentials. And occasionally managed to go out for dinner or a movie. Couldn't get all the toys and gadgets, but then, they're nice-to-haves not must-haves. In hindsight, it was very good for us, as it made me realise that I can't just cruise along and expect everything to be fine, I have to be the one to make things go positive for me. It's noone elses's responsibility but my own.

Injurys and illness suck, and can be the spanner in the works. I applaud those people with the strength of character to find a way to soldier on and not give in to the bludging option (although, depending on the illness/injury, in some cases it can be warranted imo - and I do think in cases where the issue is genuine, there should be more assistance than there is, just sadly, fakers and fraudsters abuse it to ruin it for all). In most cases there are options. I had a friend who was a tradesman for many years, then duffed his back a bit - left him semi-paralysed on one side. Couldn't do his work properly anymore. For a while it shook him, went on a benefit etc. He'd pigeonholed himself into always being the man on the site doing the job. But after time he realised that he could use his knowledge of the industry in a hands-off role, and found himself a management role with a mid-size company that required the first-hand knowledge of the role, but didn't need the hard labour aspect of it.



I respectfully disagree - from an economic sense, everyone is not worth the same. If 99% of people have the same knowledge and skills as you do, or can easily acquire said knowledge and skills, don't expect to be valued the same as someone whom only 1% of people share the same knowledge and skills. And if you're not prepared to put the effort / risk / whatever-is-applicable in, the same applies. Sorry, it might sound harsh, and it'd be fantastic if everyone could contribute evenly, but that isn't the reality at the moment. But would it really be fair if the guy cooking chips at McDonalds got paid the same as the cop putting his life on the line to help people every day?

As with anything, there are always exceptions. Some people, unfortunately, get a raw deal through no fault of their own, and that sucks. I wish there was a good way to support these outlier situations without opening everything up to fraud and corruption.

Thankyou for your measured response, it's great to know I'm not the only one who has had to make do as opposed to those who have no clues saying its ok. I have been able to move onwards now but it did cost us money as we had to move cities to get work which sucks as we lived in paradise but you can't live on sunshine alone. 		gary67 (56)
1330073 2013-02-26 07:05:00 The issue with a mandated minimum wage is that the income for the business has to be sufficient to support it, while including other costs as well as a margin of profit for the business-owner/shareholder (why else would someone be in business?) .

Perhaps the issue is more around an expectation from business owners/shareholders that their profit on sales increases at ever increasing rates every year .

Prices go up (to support larger profits and increased wages), then workers need to be paid more to afford to buy stuff . Then businesses need to put up prices to cover the increased costs of wages .

Vicious cycle . . .

Perhaps if we were more self-sufficient and didn't need to buy the latest gadget every few months (says the man who is getting a Nexus 4 tomorrow! :p) . . . But then the global economy would falter (even worse than recently) and we'd be back to feudalism and barter in the blink of an eye .

Just what the Greens want!!!

If one can't support having staff then should refrain to have any . 		Sanco (683)
1330074 2013-02-26 07:13:00 I can't believe what I am reading from inphinity and chill here. What do you guys earn???? I know for experience that fully qualified builders with families and kids and mortgages, as a simple example for simple minds, have lost their job and because of the lack of that avenue they had to accept jobs in all sorts of other industries where the jackals that call themselves employers only would pay them minimum wage. Of course Chill, they should go and upskill - again - at the age of 45 / 50 with a trade already behind. Of course!
I do not know where the brains are when making such blindsided statements.
I earn very good money and live a very comfortable life but I don't forget the less fortunate.
What a lot of crap! 		Sanco (683)
1330075 2013-02-26 07:15:00 Hi Digby, is that a projected raise in the minimum wage for april this year? From what I read in your post you say the Govt just raised the minimum wage to $13.75 ( a bloody pittance if you asked me anyhow ), if that is the case the DoL needs to be advised as they seem to have missed out on their own decision. This from their website:

"The minimum wage rates are reviewed every year. As of 1 April 2012 the adult minimum wage rates (before tax) that apply for employees aged 16 or over are:
$13.50 an hour, which is
$108.00 for an 8-hour day or
$540.00 for a 40-hour week."

Let's look a little wider.

BELGIUM - €1,472.40 a month for workers 21 years of age and over; €1,511.48 a month for workers 21 and a half years of age, with six months of service; €1,528.84 a month for workers 22 years of age, with 12 months of service; coupled with extensive social benefits

AUSTRALIA - $15.96 Australian Dollars per hour / 606.40 Australian dollars per week; Year 1-4 of apprenticeship starting at $10.22 Australian Dollars per hour & building to $17.65Australian dollars. Set federally by Fair Work Australia.

DENMARK - None, nationally; instead, negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was 103.15 kroner per hour, according to statistics released on March 1, 2009.

FRANCE - €9.40 per hour; €1,425.67 per month for 151.67 hours worked (or 7 hours every weekday of the month)

GERMANY - No statutory minimum wage, except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.

FINLAND - None in law; however, the law requires all employers, including non-unionized ones, to pay minimum wages agreed to in collective bargaining agreements; almost all workers are covered under such arrangements.

HONG KONG - HK$28 per hour SAR wide; HK$3,580 per month for foreign domestic workers.

ICELAND - None; minimum wages are negotiated in various collectively bargained agreements and applied automatically to all employees in those occupations, regardless of union membership; while the agreements can be either industry- or sector-wide, and in some cases firm-specific, the minimum wage levels are occupation-specific

IRELAND - £8.65 per hour

ITALY - None by law; instead set through collective bargaining agreements on a sector-by-sector basis

LUXEMBOURG - €1,801.49 per month for unqualified workers over 18; increased by 20% for a qualified employee; decreased by 20% to 25% in the case of an adolescent worker.

NETHERLAND - €1,446.60 per month, €333.85 per week or €66.77 per day for persons 23 and older;[51] between 30-85% of this amount for persons aged 15-22

NEW ZEALAND - NZ$13.50 per hour for workers 18 years old or older, and NZ$10.80 per hour for those aged 16 or 17 or in training; there is no statutory minimum wage for employees who are under 16 years old.

SWITZERLAND - None; however, a majority of the voluntary collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation, ranging from 2,200 to 4,200 francs per month for unskilled workers and from 2,800 to 5,300 francs per month for skilled employees.

We can see from there that while some countries - interestingly enough some of the most affluent in Europe - do not have a government mandated minimum wage, they rely on free market and the bargaining power of certain unions.

Other countries have higher minimum wage than New Zealand and while the americas and Britain may appear low wages countries their ingrained tipping habits, something simply non-existent in most parts of New Zealand, allow workers to go home with a fair pay.

Also you'll notice that New Zealand's current minimum wage of $13.50 applies only to 18 years of age and over, whilst younger ones and ones in an apprenticeship can be around $10.00 per hour.

So do you think a person of 35 years of age with a family that was made redundant due to the recession accepting a new job in an alternative industry should be able to live a comfortable life in Godzone with $13.50 per hour?

In the Hawkes Bay area the fruitgrowers seem happy to pay that plus airfares and accommodation to overseas apple pickers - but we scoff at the new zealand counterpart to earn a decorous living?

The rate goes up on April the 1st (and no its not an April fools joke.

Yes most European countries have a high minimum wage or high wages set by their industries.
But we all know about Europe's problems.
Factories closing like mad.

Tipping really occurs only in one industry I don't know whay you boiught that up. And the US minumw wage fro waiters is $2.75 plus tips. (i kid you not)

And quoting the minimum wage for Hongkong in HognKong dollars is not helpful.

I spent a lot of time getting my data and converting it to US and then NZ dollars so its easy to compare.

And you miss my main point we are competing with the Asia Pacific area.
So have a look at figures for the USA, Canada, Australia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, Chile, Argentina. In that list we are second only to Australia.

That is why tourists come from the last four countries to work in our kiwifruit packhouses at our minium rates. 		Digby (677)
1330076 2013-02-26 07:20:00 Yeah pctek makes a good point, you have to compare the wage in context to cost of living or it's meaningless.


No you don't

We are living a global world.
We pay the world price for petrol (plus our high taxes)
We sell our cheese on milk powder at the world price.

If a country prices itself off the world market they cannot sell their stuff and no one will want to invest there.

That's why that US tyre executive said he would not be expanding their tyre factory in France, cos they only work a few hours a day and have high pay.

We need to increase our population to make ecoomies of scale and to put pressure on companies to stop ripping us off. 		Digby (677)
1330077 2013-02-26 07:21:00 The rate goes up on April the 1st (and no its not an April fools joke.

Yes most European countries have a high minimum wage or high wages set by their industries.
But we all know about Europe's problems.
Factories closing like mad.

Tipping really occurs only in one industry I don't know whay you boiught that up. And the US minumw wage fro waiters is $2.75 plus tips. (i kid you not)

And quoting the minimum wage for Hongkong in HognKong dollars is not helpful.

I spent a lot of time getting my data and converting it to US and then NZ dollars so its easy to compare.

And you miss my main point we are competing with the Asia Pacific area.
So have a look at figures for the USA, Canada, Australia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, Chile, Argentina. In that list we are second only to Australia.

That is why tourists come from the last four countries to work in our kiwifruit packhouses at our minium rates.

Not only waiters get tipped, may be an eye opener for you here.

Of all the wages I brought up you picked hon kong as not being helpful lmao!

The people the come pick apples are not just tourists as you need to have a work permit to work here, a tourist permit is just that.

Your arguments take in more water than the costa concordia. 		Sanco (683)
1330078 2013-02-26 07:30:00 I can't believe what I am reading from inphinity and chill here. What do you guys earn???? I know for experience that fully qualified builders with families and kids and mortgages, as a simple example for simple minds, have lost their job and because of the lack of that avenue they had to accept jobs in all sorts of other industries where the jackals that call themselves employers only would pay them minimum wage. Of course Chill, they should go and upskill - again - at the age of 45 / 50 with a trade already behind. Of course!
I do not know where the brains are when making such blindsided statements.
I earn very good money and live a very comfortable life but I don't forget the less fortunate.
What a lot of crap!

You'd advocate instead raising the minimum wage to $25/hour, so that the cost of everything can increase and the people on minimum wage are, relative to the economy, in the same position, and those slightly above it are now struggling as well? As was mentioned earlier, it's an unfortunately-vicious cycle and would take a massive paradigm shift in the world economy to break out of. There are already thousands of people out of work because manufacturers etc in NZ can't compete with our south pacific neighbours due to a number of factors that include wage levels, would you see even more factories and facilities close and jobs lost? Increasing the minimum wage doesn't magically make everyone better off - and an ill-judged increase can even have the opposite effect and push some of those in the middle class down into the struggles of minimum wage. A number of other things have to change first to allow a complete revising of the minimum wages to lead to the positive impact that people seem to think it will automatically bring. 		inphinity (7274)
1330079 2013-02-26 08:52:00 Not only waiters get tipped, may be an eye opener for you here .

Of all the wages I brought up you picked hon kong as not being helpful lmao!

The people the come pick apples are not just tourists as you need to have a work permit to work here, a tourist permit is just that .

Your arguments take in more water than the costa concordia .

OK I should have said overseas people on one year work permits . Eg back packers etc, but you know what I meant .

But you have not told me about all those industries that get tips .

And all of your examples but one were highly paid European countries which we all know are in a basket case, and losing jobs like mad . I predict that it will be years before Europe recovers .

I have seen some commentators predict that Europe will not recover until they become more competitive with Asia . (and you know what that means . )

I am glad that others get at what I am saying . 		Digby (677)
1330080 2013-02-26 12:27:00 My family survived on a student wage as my father went back and re-trained... My father, mother, 5 sibblings (plus me), as well as looking after a woman going through a mental breakdown, all under one roof, on a student allowance.

We lived for 3 years like that, with no income additional

Anybody who tells me $18 an hour isn't enough is either talking out their ass, or not living on the bare minimum. If you're earning more than the minimum wage, and your income is important to you, then that's why (Like me) you would get insurance.

I think in todays terms it work out we lived off the equivalent of around $16 an hour for a family of 8 plus an extra... No income from the "extra" either, no benefits, no nothing... Just a family friends in a midlife crisis having a mental breakdown and we helped her out and put her up in a room while she was incapable of taking care of herself.

Best part about it all: We never felt poor!

Why? Because I was 12 and worked through a budget with my parents. It was a very tight budget, we didn't get luxuries like Sky TV, no alcohol (For them, I was 12 and didn't really like it back then), no smokes, no ice cream or dessert, no snacks like packets of chips, and we were lucky to get hot chips and a 60c donut once a month for dinner. We survived of the most basic of basic meals (Mince, mashed potato and a few veggies) but we still felt like we had everything we could need.

No the "living wage" is an absolute joke if you ask me. Sure you can't live in a flash townhouse and probably have to move somewhere where rent is cheaper (As we did), but that's OK, the "minimum" is not supposed to be "luxury" and I think that's where a lot of people are completely ignorant about it. I've been there, it's not that bad, and if you're determined then it's not a permanent thing.

Same for my wife and I, newly married, I was trying to make self-employment happen (It didn't work). I earned $10K in the first year we were married. She was a full-time student working, making $260 a week post-taxes (Couldn't get the student allowance, both our parents made just over the limit). We survived on that, relatively comfortably I might add. We weren't saving more than a few bucks a week, we rarely went out, but we survived. You just have to be smart. 		Chilling_Silence (9)
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